MovieChat Forums > Alexei Navalny Discussion > Rest in peace Alexei Navalny

Rest in peace Alexei Navalny


I'd like to know ( but we all never will ) if Alexei Navalny was an American CIA operative?

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Oh yes, of course. Your assumption when a Russian dissident dies in a jail cell is automatically that they were truly working for the USA.

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Do you really think that is not a possibility? Do you know anything about how the CIA works - pro and con?

And, do you know the difference better a question, a statement, and an assumption?

Maybe you are an expert on this case, or the Sergei Magnitsky case and can fill me in on the facts of the matter, i.e. from both sides, or is your immediate assumption that Russia has only evil intent and wants kill dissidents?

Every time the US wants to dump on Russia we get a story about how Russia poisons someone using a poison that is associated with or only produced in Russia. Is that not the least bit interesting to you?

Every hear of Fred Hampton? Martin Luther King? These political things are not always so easy to figure out. Keep on eye on what is going to happen to Tucker Carlson for his "treasonous" interview with Vladimir Putin.

It is not so easy to keep and open mind about international relations. You seem to automatically believe the stories we hear in the West and automatically get red hot and jumping up when you think those stories are being challenged or questioned?

What's the deal with you. Popping off like you do is a cheap way to pretend Patriotism - like words are cheap.

It is a fucked up think that you do questioning my character and patriotism because I want to know the truth. To you being suspicous are asking questions is a thing to attack. Woof, woof, attack dog.

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Ah yes, the USA is responsible for the Russian state murdering dissidents, activists and politicians.

>Maybe you are an expert on this case, or the Sergei Magnitsky case and can fill me in on the facts of the matter, i.e. from both sides, or is your immediate assumption that Russia has only evil intent and wants kill dissidents?

Are you alleging Sergey Magnitsky was a CIA agent too? Did that mean that Russia had to kill him?

Russia has a history of journalists, dissidents, activists and politicians being shot in public, jumping out of windows, or just being arrested on spurious charges. Do you deny this?

>Every time the US wants to dump on Russia we get a story about how Russia poisons someone using a poison that is associated with or only produced in Russia. Is that not the least bit interesting to you?

Navalny has been in a Russian prison for the last 3 years. What on earth does the US have to do with what happened to him?

Are you claiming that all the dissidents from Russia abroad that were killed were all actually poisoned or shot by US agents?

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Skavau's hypervolic sarcasm, again?

You must think my last reply was an invitation for another one of your endless BS sessions.

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What's hyperbolic about it? This very thread and your follow-up is drenched in the supposition that Russia doesn't really kill or arrest opposition, and that only does so when they're CIA operatives. You then went and questioned whether or not people like Alexander Litvinenko and the Skripals were truly poisoned on orders from the Russian state.

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NO! Bad Skavau!

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When you're willing to respond to any of my points, do so.

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If you actually had a point that you can defend I'd have already done so.
Bad Skavau!

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>Every hear of Fred Hampton? Martin Luther King? These political things are not always so easy to figure out. Keep on eye on what is going to happen to Tucker Carlson for his "treasonous" interview with Vladimir Putin.

What is it you think is going to happen? And who are you quoting there when you call it "treasonous"?

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Just STFU with your endless and hostile tail-chasing questions.

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You hint-hint, nudge-nudge at things but whenever pressed to say what you mean you back away quickly.

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> whenever pressed to say what you mean you back away quickly.

That's you.

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I await for some examples on this, although to be consistent with previous behaviour I'm sure you'll just back away and complain that I asked you.

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Fuck this CIA joke

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Kremlin says Navalny works with CIA after he accuses Putin of poisoning
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN26M4JA/

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And of course, the Kremlin should just be automatically believed and the US government automatically disbelieved when they ever talk about Russia.

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Bad Skavau!
Bad Skavau!
NO! Bad Skavau! I didn't say that or imply it.

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So what was your point in bringing it up then? Kremlin blames USA for Navalny. Shock!

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A new invitation to another of your endless BS sessions.

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You're backing away again, what a surprise. You seem to only like meek and mild people who immediately just accept everything you say and don't challenge the unstated presuppositions of your position.

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I’ll bet you believed Putin in Feb. 2022 when he said Russian troops massed in the border of Ukraine would not be invading. Putin has no compunction about lying if it serves his interest.

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You don't think our government has lied to us?

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Sure, but Putin lies like it’s a bodily function and many of his lies, like his intentions toward Ukraine, are highly consequential. He then jails or kills those in his country who point out his lies or criticize him.

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Oh, yes, all Putin opponents, dissidents, etc that had died had been CIA operatives.

Makes sense.

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Don't you think probably some of them have been? We sure have a lot of movies with that theme? A lot of American celebrities and scientists and business men are operatives of the CIA.

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The guy was sickly and croaked while locked up. Why is everyone jumping to conclusions?

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It is quite conceivable that shitty prison conditions contributed to his demise.

But also Russia has a long history of murdering dissidents, activists, politicians etc.

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You have no evidence the govt had anything to do with it. Stop coming up with wild conspiracies.

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I didn't say they did in this case, and dying in a prison due to squalid conditions is not the same thing as suggesting he was murdered.

Are you unaware of how Russian treats opposition?

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According to whom?

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Russia has shut down all opposition media. Russia arrests and shoots opposition activists, politicians, journalists and influencers. Russia bans criticism of the "special military operation". Russia bans all "LGBT propaganda" and regards any and all LGBT cultural expression as "extremism". Russia bans all advocacy of separatism. Russia has an active "offending religion" law that effectively acts as a blasphemy law. Russia bans insulting politicians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Sergei_and_Yulia_Skripal

List of notable Russian politician/journalist/activist deaths:

1.⁠ ⁠ALEXEI NAVALNY, 47 - Died behind bars today, 2024.  
2.⁠ ⁠SERGEI PROTONSENYA, 55 - Found hanged in Lloret de Mar, Spain, 2022.  
3.⁠ ⁠VLADISLAV AVAYEV, 51 - Found dead along with his wife and 13 year old daughter, in Moscow, 2022.  
4.⁠ ⁠VASILY MELNIKOV, 43 - Found dead with family in Nizhny Novgorod, Russia, 2022.  
5.⁠ ⁠MIKHAIL WATFORD, 66 - Found hanged in Surrey, UK, 2022.  
6.⁠ ⁠ALEXANDER TYULYAKOV, 65 - Found hanged in St Petersburg, 2022.  
7.⁠ ⁠LEONID SHULMAN, 60 - Found dead in St Petersburg, 2022.  
8.⁠ ⁠BORIS NEMTSOV, 55 - Shot near the Kremlin, Moscow, 2015.  
9.⁠ ⁠ANASTASIA BABUROVA, 25 - Journalist, shot in Moscow, 2009.
10.⁠ ⁠STANISLAV MARKELLOV, 34 - Human rights lawyer, shot in Moscow, 2009.
11.⁠ ⁠NATALIA ESTEMIROVA, 51 - Human rights activist, found shot in 2009.
12.⁠ ⁠SERGEI MAGNITSKY, 37 - Lawyer, died in custody, blunt cranial trauma, in Moscow, 2009.
13.⁠ ⁠BORIS BEREZOVSKY, 67 - Oligarch, found dead in Berkshire, UK, 2013.
14.⁠ ⁠ALEXANDER PEREPILICHNY, 44 - Found dead jogging near his home in London, 2012.
15.⁠ ⁠ALEXANDER LITVINENKO, 43 - Died from Polonium-210 poisoning in London, 2006.
16.⁠ ⁠ANNA POLITKOVSKAYA, 48 - Journalist, shot in Moscow, 2006.
17.⁠ ⁠ PAUL KLEBNIKOV, 41 - Forbes Russia editor, shot in Moscow, 2004.
18.⁠ ⁠SERGEI YUSHENKOV, 52 - Liberal Russia party co-founder, shot in Moscow, 2003.

Like you seem genuinely ignorant about how Russia is. This isn't really up for debate. Russia persecutes opposition, and has done so for over a decade.

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I just love watching you list shit like this but when the left in America is obviously prosecuting their lead political opponent and imprisoning his supporters on bullshit charges you make every excuse in the book for it.
And label everything just coincidental timing.

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Who in the USA has been arrested and charged and jailed purely for being conservative or republican?

What conservative media has been shut down in the USA? Why hasn't Fox News or The Daily Wire been shut down? Why hasn't Ben Shapiro been shot? Why hasn't Biden implemented a law banning criticism of NATO?

If you're going to compare the USA to Russia, this is the sort of shit you would see.

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What conservative media has been shut down in the USA?
Tons of banning happened of journalists and other dissidence at the demand of govt on twitter and every other platform. What are you fucking talking about?

"Why hasn't Fox News or The Daily Wire been shut down? "
Why doesn't Putin shutdown his propaganda? Because they say exactly what he wants them to say, you guys obsess over Fox like it's real opposition, and what did Fox do the second its biggest host started doing stories on things that ACTUALLY countered the official narrative? They fired him. Shapiro falls in line on all the establishment narratives and might backtrack a little after those narratives are proved bogus by others. You are arguing extents and degrees of censorship when the government's are doing the same thing through different means.

"Why hasn't Biden implemented a law banning criticism of NATO?"
He doesn't need to.

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>Tons of banning happened of journalists and other dissidence at the demand of govt on twitter and every other platform. What are you fucking talking about?

To the extent that this happened, and it did not: https://www.techdirt.com/2022/12/07/hello-youve-been-referred-here-because-youre-wrong-about-twitter-and-hunter-bidens-laptop/

https://www.techdirt.com/2022/12/20/no-the-fbi-is-not-paying-twitter-to-censor/

It would not be comparable to what Russia does to opposition leaders and activists. Why isn't Ben Shapiro in jail? Why hasn't Matt Walsh been chucked out of a window?

>Why doesn't Putin shutdown his propaganda?

Where is your evidence that the Daily Wire and Fox News are part of Bidens propaganda?

> Because they say exactly what he wants them to say, you guys obsess over Fox like it's real opposition, and what did Fox do the second its biggest host started doing stories on things that ACTUALLY countered the official narrative? They fired him.

He cost them a lot of money.

>Shapiro falls in line on all the establishment narratives and might backtrack a little after those narratives are proved bogus by others.

What narratives are you referring to?

>You are arguing extents and degrees of censorship when the government's are doing the same thing through different means.

I must've missed when Biden pisoned opposition activists, or had Republican representatives shot in broad daylight in the street.

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All the networks you mention are America's state religion.
The rest can be shut down by having to try to compete with no money with massively funded Right-wing media.

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>All the networks you mention are America's state religion.

The Daily Wire is "America's state religion"? Fox News is "America's state religion"? I seem to recall they're both pretty hostile to Biden. So if Biden is autocratic and dictatorial, why has he not shut them down?

>The rest can be shut down by having to try to compete with no money with massively funded Right-wing media.

Do you consider MSNBC, CNN etc as "right-wing media"?

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I've never said Biden was autocratic and dictatorial

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Okay. But I ask that when people compare Biden to Putin in terms of policy.

Putin arrests and shuts down opposition journalists.

Biden does not.

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Putin is not our President.

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I know. But other people were suggesting that Biden is as bad as Putin.

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Then go bother them

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You'll notice in this chain that you joined in on that I was replying to *Lord Rake*, and not you.

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And what's the connection??? If some shit happens in USA (it didn't) it absolves Putin from any guilt?
If some shit happens in USA (it didn't) it means that we have 2 guilty parties, not that Putin is an angel.

Plus: Nobody killed Trump, nobody killed Tucker.

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Cut & paste right out of the WSJ ... pretending you know something.

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Sorry, are you alleging those things actually didn't happen? Do you have any particular examples you wish to take issue with?

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It takes no thought or coherent thread of logic to cut and paste and make vapid claims.

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What do you mean "vapid claims"? I'm just noting the many dissidents in Russia who have been shot, poisoned, jumped out of windows or "suicided" in other ways. There are many many more beyond that.

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vapid - offering nothing that is stimulating or challenging.

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As I have mentioned before and you somewhat acknowledged the US government has a long history of killing people, or having accidents, plane crashes or social policies that destroy people's lives which if looked at by Russians would probably elicit skpeticism.

Even your buddy Trump said that people who believed the US was so innocent were naive and stupid.

Another example, Nigeria's Ken Sarawewa murdered by American oil interests.

Take a look at Thom Hartmann's Hidden History of Health Care book.

I'd like to see the US live up to its own hype and improve Americans' lifestyles and build out our infrastructure instead of going to war based on BS. If we need to go to war to defend our land, economy or even hold our empire together - just be honest and get the American people's buy in.

That is where our whole American dream and visions came with with FDR who was basically about if we are going to ask Americans to fight and die for our hegemony in WWII then we should treat them as real citizens assets.

Now that is under attack for 40 years while you "seem" to be supporting the narratives that bolster than attack.

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>As I have mentioned before and you somewhat acknowledged the US government has a long history of killing people, or having accidents, plane crashes or social policies that destroy people's lives which if looked at by Russians would probably elicit skpeticism.

Yet the USA does have independent media. Russia does not.

>Another example, Nigeria's Ken Sarawewa murdered by American oil interests.

He was hanged by the Nigerian regime, and the USA "recalled its ambassador from Nigeria, imposed an arms embargo on Nigeria, and imposed travel restrictions on members of the Nigerian military regime and their families" as a reaction.

>Even your buddy Trump said that people who believed the US was so innocent were naive and stupid.

What gives you the idea that Trump is my "buddy"?

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There is no evidence either way. But from what I have heard and read the conditions they imprison people who they believe are spies or working against the government are deadly over a long period of time. But then again our prisons are not so great - especially Guantanamo. We don't hear must information that the government doesn't want us to hear about any of this because the more of it gets out, the more people want to react and influence or change things that are decided outside of the democratic process.

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Not sure about working for the CIA, but Navalny was a US/UK proxy.
https://thegrayzone.com/2021/02/20/reuters-bbc-uk-foreign-office-russian-media/

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People don't realize how hostile the UK & US have been to Russia.

A good TV series about this, not really historical, was Reilly: Ace Of Spies.

Reilly, Ace of Spies is a 1983 British television programme dramatizing the life of Sidney Reilly, a Russian-born adventurer who became one of the greatest spies ever to work for the United Kingdom and the British Empire. Among his exploits, in the early 20th century, were the infiltration of the German General Staff in 1917 and a near-overthrow of the Bolsheviks in 1918. His reputation with women was as legendary as his genius for espionage.

The British especially have feared and hated Russia because of how the Communists murdered the Russian royals. Same with the US.

Read about all the times the US tried to assassinate Fidel Castro, and you can imagine that we have been trying for decades to kill Putin.

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Your argument is flawed. You're defending a brutal murderous corrupt kleptocratic authoritarian dictator Putin because U.S. foreign policy is bad. You hold a "good guy" vs "bad guy" mindset. U.S. foreign policy is bad, therefore U.S. opponents must be good. That's a very juvenile way to interpret a geopolitical situation.

U S. and Brits didn't hate Communism because of dead royals. The reason is because Communism was a competing economic system against Capitalism which was spreading worldwide. More communist countries meant fewer markets and less profits for the U.S.. Also, communists' political systems are opposed to freedom and democracy which are central U.S. values.

The latest Cold War is no longer Communism vs Capitalism. It's Pluralistic Representative Democracy vs Nationalistic Authoritarian Dictatorship. Your defense of Putin shows you're on the wrong side.

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We've been working like crazy to propagandize the Russian people, and our own people. The fear that we have over Tucker Carlson just talking to Putin. So volatile that every story in the media has been about attacking Carlson, who I don't care much for anyway. But when they attack Carlson, conspicuously absent are analysis of what Putin said, and counterpoints of truth. Because a lot of what Putin said was true, though he had his own Russian interpretation of it, and reaction to it.

We are terrified and during the Ukraine war the social media was censored, and discussion boards of our main newspapers were distorted or shut down.

I don't know what the Grey Zone is, but everyone's got their slant on things, even them. Someday maybe there will be global discussion, news and polling ... but there are no adults in the global room to moderate it.

--

The new leaks illustrate in alarming detail how Reuters and the BBC – two of the largest and most distinguished news organizations in the world – attempted to answer the British foreign ministry’s call for help in improving its “ability to respond and to promote our message across Russia,” and to “counter the Russian government’s narrative.” Among the UK FCO’s stated goals, according to the director of the CDMD, was to “weaken the Russian State’s influence on its near neighbours.”

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Russian intelligence services have released sting video footage showing Vladimir Ashurkov, the executive director of Navalny’s FBK anti-corruption organization, meeting in 2013 with a suspected British MI6 agent named James William Thomas Ford, who was operating out of the British embassy in Moscow. During the rendezvous, Ashurkov can be heard asking for 10 to 20 million dollars to generate “quite a different picture” of the political landscape.

from that link

And https://orinocotribune.com/navalnys-links-with-british-intelligence-service-revealed/

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Interesting. I had my hunches.

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"More important the other person is not M16

It’s from 2012 so not the reason why he was arrested

The two individuals were discussing fund-raising for an anti corruption protest campaign.

Clipped and cherry picked by the FSB"

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Suspected MI6 agent - an employee of the British embassy.
Imagine if Russia approached a US-based anti-corruption agency and offered to pay money to promote anti-corruption campaign in the US. Anti-corruption campaign aimed specifically at the current ruling party and its president at that.

Last but not least - https://www.reuters.com/world/eu-uk-us-speak-with-navalny-team-after-russia-expels-diplomats-2021-02-08/
What does it say when envoys from these 3 countries meet up with Navalny's team?

Imagine China, Russia and North Korea meeting up with Trump's team to get him out of trouble. What assumptions would you make? Would those assumptions be wrong?

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>Last but not least - https://www.reuters.com/world/eu-uk-us-speak-with-navalny-team-after-russia-expels-diplomats-2021-02-08/

>What does it say when envoys from these 3 countries meet up with Navalny's team?

Imagine my shock when countries meet up with representatives of exiled dissidents. This is completely normal. Russian politicians meet with people who "flee" the United States too. The woman, Tara Reade, who accused Biden of sexual harassment defected to Russia and was used as a propaganda piece for a bit.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/30/tara-reade-defects-russia-biden#:~:text=8%20months%20old-,Tara%20Reade%2C%20who%20accused%20Joe%20Biden,sexual%20assault%2C%20defects%20to%20Russia&text=Tara%20Reade%2C%20a%20former%20Senate,she%20had%20defected%20to%20Russia.

>Imagine China, Russia and North Korea meeting up with Trump's team to get him out of trouble. What assumptions would you make? Would those assumptions be wrong?

What you mean like Michael Flynn and Jill Stein? Only they sat with Vladimir Putin, and didn't use some representative to speak with another representative.

Also, this was recorded in 2012 and had nothing to do with "getting Navalny out of trouble". He was charged for things that were unrelated to this.

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https://www.reuters.com/world/eu-uk-us-speak-with-navalny-team-after-russia-expels-diplomats-2021-02-08/

Read again - Navalny's team is still in Russia. They were not exiled. This is in 2021 - not 2012. You are confusing the sting operation in 2012 with this conference in 2021.

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Okay. So? Why is this a bad thing?

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It's a bad thing because basically your argument was based on erroneous information - can you please rephrase your statement? I'd like to see it again in a way that it makes sense (assuming you can form it in such a way, without using false info).

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Oh and when it comes to that sting operation in 2012 - consider the following
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80%932013_Russian_protests

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What about them? That "sting operation" is only a negative if you think that protests are inherently dangerous and shouldn't happen.

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Are you aware of how coups are orchestrated?
Protests play a big role in that - especially if funded from abroad.

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Where did that excerpt show anything like a planned coup? The protests were about rigged elections, a lack of political freedoms and called for release of political prisoners.

You know, in the UK, polling pressure caused Liz Truss government to collapse. If journalists and activists instead bought pressure by way of mass protests in London... would that have been a planned coup?

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If funded from abroad - it would most certainly be a planned coup.

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And where is your evidence it was overwhelmingly "funded from abroad"? We have no idea who this man is in that excerpt except who the FSB claim he is. I'll also add that Navalny was not actually officially charged for any of this stuff.

And I notice no comment from you regarding Jill Stein and Michael Flynn having dinner with Putin in Moscow.

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I think any presidential candidate having dinner with the perceived enemy of the state just prior to elections is a really bad sign - implying a collusion.

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That's awful. So why isn't Michael Flynn and Jill Stein in prison then?

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You are getting off topic. But if they were able to kick off million-man marches, I suspect they would have been - lol
Threat evaluation.

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Except Navalny was never charged for the Russian protests.

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this engagement is over -
you can't stop trolling at this point

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You do realise that opposition journalists, activists, politicians in authoritarian states whether its China, Russia, Belarus, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Hungary often have no choice but to talk with groups outside of the country. Opposition within those countries is already ruthlessly suppressed.

What do you propose opposition groups do under authoritarian regimes?

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The man in question - Second Secretary of Political Affairs of the UK embassy in Russia, James William Thomas Ford.

Embassies are indeed often used by foreign governments to place intelligence officers overseas with diplomatic immunity.

Just check out this fellow - the current director of CIA - lol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Burns_(diplomat)

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>The man in question - Second Secretary of Political Affairs of the UK embassy in Russia, James William Thomas Ford.

Okay. So they claimed. Why wasn't Navalny charged for his (via another person) interactions with him?

>Just check out this fellow - the current director of CIA - lol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Burns_(diplomat)

What about him?

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now you are trolling
I was engaging you thinking that you really wanted to understand the issue at hand, but it seems like everyone always begins to troll when their position becomes indefensible. sad

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You're claiming that this is some smoking gun, as released by the Russian government (the cherrypicked clip is no such thing), but Navalny was never charged for any meetings his associates had with members of the UK embassy.

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https://www.britishherald.com/2021/02/08/eu-uk-and-us-to-conduct-talks-with-navalny-team-after-russia-removes-diplomats/

After he was imprisoned, his handlers basically revealed themselves

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That's the Kremlin's version of Navalny, you Russian troll. 🪆​

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https://www.reuters.com/world/eu-uk-us-speak-with-navalny-team-after-russia-expels-diplomats-2021-02-08/

That's US media reporting about a meeting between EU, UK and US officials with Navalny's team.
Name calling is cute - see no evil, hear no evil?

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Your links pointed to various articles.
Your interpretation of them comes directly from the Kremlin. 🪆​

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BRUSSELS, Feb 8 (Reuters) - The European Union will hold a video call on Monday with allies of jailed Kremlin critic Alexei Navalny, joined by envoys from Britain, the United States, Canada and Ukraine, after Russia expelled diplomats from EU states last week, diplomats said.

Seems to me like you are now calling Reuters a Kremlin media outlet.

Fascinating.

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Your Reuters' quote doesn't prove anything, trolly. 🪆

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A tad thick skulled, huh?

Moving on

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Skål and bon voyage! 💀​ 👋​

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And where do you think our interpretation comes from.
Ever heard of the Gulf of Tonkin?
I support my country, but it's should never be my country right or wrong.
It should never be, ignore that man behind the curtain.
It should never be, just shut up and do what you know is wrong.
Vietnam killed millions of people all over Southeast Asia.
Very similar story with Ukraine - it was completely avoidable.

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Rest in peace Alexei Navalny
TrentnQuarantino (7853) posted 8 hours ago

I'd like to know ( but we all never will ) if Alexei Navalny was an American CIA operative?


And I'd like to know Navalny's true cause of death...if he's really dead. ☻

Btw. a touching obituary with this misleading headline. 🤮​

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No, I mean it. Navalny was treated in a barbaric unciviled way. I think they used him as an example and warning to other CIA operatives that it will not turn out well for them.
Just look at how many times and different ways American tried to assassinate Fidel Castro or to overthrow Hugo Chavez.

If we do not want countries to do this to each other ... how can that happen?

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"No, I mean it. Navalny was treated in a barbaric unciviled way."
"...warning to other CIA operatives..."

Navalny wasn't an isn't CIA.
Navalny is an "example" of how dissenters are treated in the Russian dictatorship.


You can smear your hypocritical honesty and your lying headline on your red face, leftie.
You don't need to pretend to be a peace-loving bonobo. 🍎​ 🐒​

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>No, I mean it. Navalny was treated in a barbaric unciviled way. I think they used him as an example and warning to other CIA operatives that it will not turn out well for them.

Again, your presupposition that he was a CIA operative is completely and utterly speculative. Why hasn't Russia released a dossier of evidence if this is true?

Do you think every single Russian journalist, opposition figure, activist shot dead, poisoned, or leapt from a window was a "CIA operative"?

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Please stay in your sub-thread.
Thanks. ☻

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Corrupt Putin runs a kleptocratic authoritarian dictatorship. Why wouldn't he have Russian critics and opponents?

BTW, Navalny ran for president against Putin before Putin barred him. Dictators hate dissent.

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🕯R.I.P.🕯

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