MovieChat Forums > Donald Trump Discussion > Just Repeal without Replace

Just Repeal without Replace

posted 7 years ago by Keelai (34982)
96 replies | jump to latest

No healthcare for you! Trump and McConnell have given up on healthcare reform. But, not their tax cuts for themselves and their rich friends. But, look on the bright side. Multi-millionaires and billionaires will be able to buy a larger yacht with their new tax savings.

they are too stupid to know how to get it done even though practically every country in the world has national health insurance.

No net neutrality. Bigger bills from Netflix, Amazon Prime, Hulu and other content providers when they have to pass the increases to the consumer. also. Expect larger internet bills for crappier service.

Yep, Trump is really looking out for us regular folk.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"Multi-millionaires and billionaires will be able to buy a larger yacht with their new tax savings. "

I love this type of thinking from people that do not understand how money or economics works. Think about this, how many people have jobs building yachts when lots of rich people have more money to buy them? Edit: and guess what when people have better jobs that have better pay they can afford better health insurance. Look it up under obamacare life expectancy dropped for the first time in around 40 years. Health outcomes also decreased. Universal healthcare insurance does not lead to better quality healthcare.

But I guess that would require liberals to actually like get a real job and be useful to a market, can't have that now can we.

[–] FordFairlane (299) 7 years ago

[deleted]

[–] [email protected] (5926) 7 years ago

Just an impartial observation- "The rich don't spend it. They save it."?? Whaaaat?

Didn't the OP b#tch about the rich buying yachts? Sounds like spending to me. And who builds yachts? Uh, people who want and need an income. Who builds those mansions and swimming pools and luxury cars? Other people who need jobs.

The rich also invest in businesses and industry. Like that saying, "I never got a job from a poor person."

No doubt there are greedy rich people, just like there are greedy poor people. Having flaws is not confined to the rich. Like those who aren't rich, bemoaning the fact that "the wealthy" have a lot of stuff. Well... NOT coveting your neighbors goods is one of the top ten commandments.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

finally an intellectual honest commentator. I was wondering if only the sewage from Imdb drained here.

I do not expect everyone to understand how the economy works or understand that if the rich horde (save) their money it becomes more and more worthless without reinvesting it. But I can not stand those that are the most critical of capitalism are the least educated in it. Most i have talked to do not even Know what GDP stands for or what it means without looking it up on google.

[–] FordFairlane (299) 7 years ago

Hmm, what does any of that have to do with repeal and replace? The point of taking money away from programs like Medicaid is so that they can increase tax breaks to the super wealthy. The super wealthy dont spend that money. They save it. They put it in to off shore accounts. They dont spend it like poor people spend money.

The OP was (I hope) using an analogy to illustrate the point that the rich dont need more money. It has nothing to do with coveting, Im not exactly poor myself. Doesnt mean I think I should get more because I have more. Doesnt mean the poor should be left to die because I need to get a better tax return.

The point that the republicans have been making for 8 years is that they can do it better. Yet here we are, one failed attempt after another to improve on obamacare. Whos stopping them? Its not the democrates, they have as much power a fucked vacuum cleaner. So whats going on? Ill tell you wants going on, the republicans themselves are looking at this shit and think its too much. Yet mitch the cunt mcconnel still wants to push through dog shit so he can get tax breaks for his rich pals.

And really, who gives a shit about some made up ten commandments? Give me morality any day of the week over made up bullshit thats cherry picked by people that want an excuse to be bigots.

[–] [email protected] (5926) 7 years ago

Well you had me on your side, sort of, until you referred to the ten commandments as "made up"! ha

WELL, okey dokey! But may I ask just WHERE you got your morality from? The left seems to "make up" an awful lot of morals to justify its actions. Who created this "morality" you speak of? Do you know anyone who was born totally moral and knowing right from wrong? Or did they have to be taught?

I realize that it DOES seem "cherry picked" when someone cites a commandment which makes a person uncomfortable.

I have no argument that the Republican party isn't doing a very good job. And yes, the rich put ( or hide)their money elsewhere. Do a little research and find out where Old Joe Kennedy put the family wealth. They didn't exactly have to pay the huge death tax when he died.

And yes, the rich WILL put their money out of the reaches of the government's grubby hands. I would too if I had any money to hide.

And an "analogy that the rich don't need any more money". Well that is none of my, your or the governments freakin business! Seriously. I for one, don't think today's overpaid Hollywood actors "need" any more money or mansions or designer clothes or swimming pools. I don't think an athlete "needs" a 20 million dollar contract to throw or bounce a stupid ball. They have "made enough". But they get paid what the market allows, the Free market that is.

As our last President said,"I think at some point you've made enough money."

Hmmmmm, I wonder when it will be "enough" for him and his wife? Isn't his government pension and rich buddies giving him free vacations "enough"? Why did he and Michelle feel the need to get such huge advances on their autobiographies?

Did Hillary at some point feel that she got "enough" donations from selling government influence? Who defines "enough"? Oh I forgot, the holier than thou left.

read saviodium's posts- People do not understand economics.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"And yes, the rich WILL put their money out of the reaches of the government's grubby hands. I would too if I had any money to hide."

One part that people miss about this is most of the rich that do 'avoid' taxes are actually helping the economy. The way they avoid paying taxes on the income is by reinvesting the money earned into the stock market or other types of investment weather in stock, bonds, or even forms of business loans. All of these things makes the market of multiple corporations and companies stronger which boosts productivity and output overall; which means more competitive prices and wages for employees. That is not to say that there is no abuse of the 'breaks and loopholes' and those should be addressed. But literally the worst way to address it is to try to tax the rich into oblivion because you are just moving the money from someone that is powerful but accountable and giving it to a system that is accountable to no one. Though the officials are elected the administrative bureaucracy is not. The government is awful with money and power. The less they have the better.

I also like that you bring up the fact that actually it is many of the democrates that the left praises are some of the worst abusers of tax systems and wealth 'hoarding'. Even the demagogue Bernie Sanders owns 3 houses worth more $500,000 each and drives a car worth $250,000, all the while bitching about "the wealthy 1%". At least Trump doesn't lie about being rich.

But like I said almost no liberal/leftist/progressive/socialist/democrat I have ever argued with has ever had even a basic understanding of capitalism or economics. They are more well versed in humanities and arts, which is fine but they should stick to talking about those subjects and shut up about government fiscal policies until they get some knowledge. For f*ck's sake can we stop blaming the rich for our problems. I do not hate the rich, I am inspired by their success.

[–] FordFairlane (299) 7 years ago

No no no enough of this bullshit lumping everyone together horse shit. I hate SJWs as much as the next guy. I hate that everything the weak SJWs stand for, and everything they represent. I do not care about the left and the right. And no, someone using the bible doesnt make uncomfortable until the use it to oppress others. Would you like a list, or will you concede the point?

People earning money isnt what we are talking about, again I dont know why youre bringing it up. The free market is an illusion. It doesnt exist. You think america is a capitalist country? Your wrong, its bought and paid for by corporations. If everything worked as the free market states it does then everyone would have a fair shake, which just isnt true.

Saviodium is worthless piece of shit. The bullshit he talks is smeller than his mothers pussy. He makes shit up to win an argument and then creates a leftist conspiracy to explain it away. Fuck him, I dont read any shit he posts anymore.

Again STOP lumping people youre talking to into a group. Thats yours, and that dick heads problem. You see one argument and try and use other arguments considered "left" to undercut it. Stop it. Hilary should be rotting a fucking jail cell. See how that works? Im not in your fucking "left" box. So cut it out. Both clintons are fucking criminals in my eyes. The whole democratic party need to be burned to the fucking ground for fixing that bullshit nomination in her favour. At the very best, she would have been 4 more years of obama. Or as I like to call him, Mr Drone.

The point is, the poor spend. The rich dont spend any extra they get. They dont need to. They already have everything they want. Any extra money they get goes out of the economy. Fuck sav and his bullshit about helping the economy. hes full of shit. Offshore means OFFshore. You cant boost your economy by putting your money in someone elses. To suggest otherwise is just dumb as fuck. Which he is.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

" You think america is a capitalist country? Your wrong, its bought and paid for by corporations. "

This is a contradiction. Corporations are in fact part of the free market.

"Saviodium is worthless piece of shit. The bullshit he talks is smeller than his mothers pussy. He makes shit up to win an argument and then creates a leftist conspiracy to explain it away. Fuck him, I dont read any shit he posts anymore. "

Compelling counter points.

"The point is, the poor spend. "

citation?

"The rich dont spend any extra they get. They dont need to. They already have everything they want. Any extra money they get goes out of the economy."

What good does money do rich people if they just store it away and never use it. it would not make any logical sense. Rich people want to make more money. They do this by using the money they have to make more on returns.

"Fuck sav and his bullshit about helping the economy. hes full of shit"

more compelling arguments.

"Offshore means OFFshore"

Offshoring personal income is illegal and if they are caught they are to be fined and or jailed and assets ceased. I am not for this or think this should be illegal, it is called tax evasion and should be enforced. That is not what we are talking about though. You are suggesting that the rich should pay even more in taxes then they already do and not be allowed to make 'too much' money. That is just nonsense and counter productive to an economy.

"You cant boost your economy by putting your money in someone elses."

by doing this they would drive the value of the dollar bill down. What sense would it make for a rich person to make his money worth less? and again this is illegal to do if it is personal income. jesus, please for the love of god take at least one economics class. It is like arguing about Chaucer with someone that can't read.

"To suggest otherwise is just dumb as fuck. Which he is."

and he ends with yet another compelling counter argument.

[–] [email protected] (5926) 7 years ago

"Brilliant" post, I will concede t the fact that you are one angry little camper. lol I learned my lesson over at the Imdb boards never to try and engage in an intellectual exchange with posters whose "strongest" arguments are f#@# andbullsh@t.

But I can't resist one thing you said. The rich don't need to spend because they have everything they want. Huh? so how did they GET "everything they want"? From their fairy godmother? No they SPENT money to get it!

But after they have everything they want", spend no more?? Double HUH? I guess the rich never have to buy food or clothing orm anything else.

Yeah the poor spend. They buy a used car for $2000. The rich buy Mercedes. Guess who pays more in sales tax?

I could go on and on with examples, but it's futile. You are so angry you don't even see that you keep contradicting your own arguments!

Well at least we agree that Hillary needs a new address, in a prison cell that is.

I don't have a "left box" But from the contradictory nature of your arguments, i'll just drop you in the clueless box! lol

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"I could go on and on with examples, but it's futile. You are so angry you don't even see that you keep contradicting your own arguments!"

examples and facts do not apply to those that are totally sold on a narrative and make no effort to gain knowledge or re-evaluate their assumptions. I constantly second guess myself and try to make sure I did not come to faulty conclusion. Now when i am arguing I try to bring my logic full front in best as I can articulate.

While dealing with people like these others I feel a sense of confirmation that I am correct, because they are obviously not as critical of their own thoughts and appear to argue from a complete lack of knowledge but I worry about 2 things. The first being do I get reaffirmed by their ignorance so much that I become arrogant and stop reevaluating? the second being, how am I ever going to increase my critical mind if this is the level of intellect I have to deal with?

I hope there are more out there like you pjpurple that can at least argue from simple logic even when not necessarily attempting to fully engage the poor arguments of the others.

[–] FordFairlane (299) 7 years ago

Ah the old calling me names argument, typical of cunts with no clue what they are talking about. Why are all trump supporters so utter devoid of basic intelligence? Is there a class you all take?

Anyway, you enjoy making America great again, bozo.

[–] [email protected] (5926) 7 years ago

Ah, a bit touchy there when your childish behavior is pointed out to you? lol Can't do the classy, grown up thing and say, "Oh gosh sorry. Maybe it IS childish to resort to cursing and swearing."

And what "basic intelligence" is required to argue as you do, like an adolescent with a head injury?

It's not a "calling me names" argument, by the way. It's an observation that YOU have no argument except for juvenile insults and swearing. When one speaks like a potty mouth, it's not hard to figure out that what is in that's person's head is what usually belongs in a potty! ha

So, you double down and add a few more insults. Golly gee, your brilliant arguments are just winning me over.

[–] [email protected] (5926) 7 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Keelai (34982) 7 years ago

Not sure if someone who doesn't care if their neighbor dies because they don't have health care should talk about morality and commandments.

You're missing the point that giving rich people more money doesn't improve the economy. If the Koch brothers having $82 billion isn't enough to help grow the economy, then $84 billion won't help. Is Trump's policy to make rich people richer or to grow the economy?

Middle-class people with more disposable income helps to grow the economy because they spend it on American goods and services. Less disposable income means the middle-class spend less and the economy slows. Even Henry Ford knew how important it was to give his employees a good wage in order for them to go out and buy his cars.

Most people work for small businesses owned by middle-income people. Not rich people.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"Not sure if someone who doesn't care if their neighbor dies because they don't have health care should talk about morality and commandments."

Not sure if someone that is holding me at gun point and demanding I pay for someone else's health costs should talk about morality.

BTW just because someone does not have health insurance does not mean they do not get health care. stop conflating the 2.

"You're missing the point that giving rich people more money doesn't improve the economy. "

The economy boom we had in the late 80 and early nineties says you are dead wrong. The economic collapse we had in the late 2000's and the failure to bounce back says you are an idiot. Also the conservatives do not want to 'give' rich people more money, we just think it is immoral to demand they pay for everything and believe the economy is better served if they pay their fare share and use the rest of their money to invest. And Guess what, the economic numbers agree with the fiscal conservatives.

"Is Trump's policy to make rich people richer or to grow the economy?"

When Trump figures out what his policies are I am sure we will know.

"Middle-class people with more disposable income helps to grow the economy because they spend it on American goods and services."

What if no rich people are investing or developing American goods and services because it is cheaper to ship out? How will the middle class have jobs? How will the middle class buy American products that no longer exist? Come on just follow one thought to a conclusion. What should we hold rich people at gun point and demand they stay here and pay taxes. What happens when they run out of money and the middle class is still poor and without jobs? It hurts my head to see the lack of foresight on your part.

...

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

" Even Henry Ford knew how important it was to give his employees a good wage in order for them to go out and buy his cars."

Ford had nearly no government regulations and did not get taxed into non-existence. He was able to offer competitive wages and prices on his product because of a free market. Sounds to me like you are a supporter of free market. Or is it your belief the government should be providing the wages?

"Most people work for small businesses owned by middle-income people. Not rich people."

Citation needed. I can tell you this is blatantly false. most people do not work for small businesses and even less would if regulations and taxes increased for those modest businesses.

You do not know a single actual fact of what you are talking about do you? if you do please cite your source so I can argue with them, because they are wrong and giving you bad information.

[–] Keelai (34982) 7 years ago

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results”.

Reaganomics aka: trickle-down economics aka: supply-side economics has already been repeatedly tried and it has failed.

During the Reagan era, the rich used their tax breaks to build factories in Mexico and then laid-off American workers for cheaper labor. There were also major cuts in services which caused more lay-offs and a lower quality of life. Buying luxury items, saving and stock buybacks does nothing to grow the economy. Helping create small businesses does, but those entrepreneurs are NOT rich. BTW, most yachts are manufactured in foreign countries.

More recently, Kansas Republican governor Sam Brownback tried trickle-down for five years and it failed miserably. Kansas suffered from lagging job growth and income, a huge deficit, multiple credit downgrades and poor services while its neighboring states did much better economically. Kansas' gross domestic product grew 0.2 percent last year compared to 1.6 percent nationally. Last year, angry voters kicked many of the governor's supporters out of office. In June, the Republican legislature finally said enough and voted to end the failed experiment.

http://www.businessinsider.com/kansas-experiment-with-tax-cutting-failed-on-its-own-terms-2017-6

Former American Treasury Secretary Larry Summers and UK's Labour’s Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls published a report about trickle-down economics. “Left to their own devices, unfettered markets and trickle-down economics will lead to increasing levels of inequality, stagnating wages, and a hollowing out of decent, middle-income jobs”.

Scroll down for comparison graph between trickle-down theory fiction and reality:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/the-wealth-that-failed-to-trickle-down-report-suggests-rich-do-get-richer-while-poor-stay-poor-9989183.html

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"During the Reagan era, the rich used their tax breaks to build factories in Mexico and then laid-off American workers for cheaper labor. "

You got you facts totally wrong. It was during Clinton's administration that NAFTA was signed and enacting leading to the mass exodus of US companies to Mexico.

"There were also major cuts in services which caused more lay-offs and a lower quality of life. Buying luxury items, saving and stock buybacks does nothing to grow the economy. Helping create small businesses does, but those entrepreneurs are NOT rich."

Many of these things was a response to the economic collapse of the late 70's that we were still recovering from.

"More recently, Kansas Republican governor Sam Brownback..."

One could make the argument that the heavy federal regulations did not allow for economic and business growth. In fact I am going to suggest that this was failure of the US economy to allow a states to flourish.

"Former American Treasury Secretary Larry Summers and UK's Labour’s Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls "

Do you even know who these guys are and what they believe about the economy and their policy history. Summers is the former Treasury during the clinton administration and Balls is a member of the UK Labour party. Both are socialist in disguise. Of course they are going to give this type of anti capitalist publication.

Here are some counter articles on the benefits of trick-down:

https://economyandmarkets.com/economy/innovation/trickle-down-economics-works-just-ask-the-middle-class/

https://www.thebalance.com/trickle-down-economics-theory-effect-does-it-work-3305572

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/obama-calls-it-fairy-dust-trickle-down-does-work-economist-art-laffer-says

www.investopedia.com/terms/t/trickledowntheory.asp

Is it perfect? No system is. And I do think this leans too far to the 'right' to be fully successful. But this closer to what obviously would work compared to what you are all proposing.

[–] Keelai (34982) 7 years ago

consolidated:
NAFTA was Reagan's idea. His speech:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcTPwHY-LpY

His taxcuts for the rich allowed factories to be built in Mexico. He encouraged open trade.

Your sad excuse for trickle-down's failure in Kansas is laughable.

Your link: "Why Trickle Down Economic Works in Theory But Not in Fact"
Exactly what I said.
"About Reaganomics "It's just as likely that massive government spending ended the recession."
Again, I agree.

"Throughout the 1920s three Republican presidents (Harding, Calvin Coolidge, and Herbert Hoover) practiced trickle-down economics: help the rich instead of the common people. In October 1929, seven months after Hoover took office, the stock market crashed. The Great Depression that followed lasted over ten years. Surprisingly, Hoover has been defended by some because he was not solely responsible for the massive unemployment, hunger, foreclosures, and homelessness. Any president who followed the irresponsible and incompetent Harding and Coolidge had to walk into a national disaster."

The problem with Laffer's theory being applied today is during WW1, the rich paid 77% income tax. During WW2 it was 94%. Taxes are lower today. You're ignoring Laffer's own theory:
"...But Laffer warned that this effect works best when taxes are in the "Prohibitive Range." This range goes from a 100 percent tax rate down to some hypothetical rate somewhere in the middle. If the tax rate falls below this range, then further cuts will only lower government revenue without stimulating economic growth."
Could be reason for failure in Kansas.

Average small biz owner salary is $59,562:
https://www.indeed.com/salaries/Business-Owner-Salaries
Employees:
https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/files/UnitedStates13(1).pdf

The importance of small businesses being the foundation of job growth is common knowledge. You brag about knowing macroeconomics, but you don't know this?

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"I guess analogies are just a left wing thing them, huh?"

oh i got the analogy and continued it to the conclusion that proved the original point was incorrect. following things through to conclusions is important. you can't just stop at "i don't like xyz" you have to start understanding how it works than offer solutions if you can come up with something better. but instead you just blame the rich for your lack of success and incompetence.

"When you take away from the poor and give it to the rich it doesnt help the poor. "

When rich people get richer they want to get even richer. So they invest in things, as long as they think they can make a profit; those around them if they are willing to work can take advantage of that investment and increase their own position and financing along the way. (only if they are willing to work hard and insure the rich person makes his money back and then some) A rich person is just not going to give you money to do nothing. They would not stay rich very long if they did that.

"When the rich and the super rich get more money, they dont spend it. They save it."

Well too bad for the yachts then. What will they do without rich people owning them? way to back track on the analogy you were defending. Man does it hurt to be that stupid?

"When poor people get more money they spend it."

site a source? from what I have seen in economics when really poor people get money they either save it because they have no confidence in buying things (which is the smaller percentage) or they spend it recklessly and do not use money to make more money and burn through the little they have without it benefiting anyone (which is the larger percentage).

"You wanna know what happens to the economy when more money gets spent? Would you like a fucking clue? "

depends on what the spending is on. You line of questioning here is far to broad and does not address any of the issues that come from the right people/poor people dichotomy.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"As for obamacare, blame your muppet pals like mitch mcconnel"

this reminds me of my father that always us to say to me "your buddy" when talking about his scumbag friends. I do not like McConnell and would not vote for him. I am not overtly fund of republicans especially establishment republicans and Rino's.

Universal healthcare is bad every where it exists. Obamacare was even worse it even its earliest drafts. you do not have that great of a memory do you. I remember the earlier proposals back in late 2009.

"so once again, you utter joke of human being, you can point that fucking finger up your arse!"

lol my, my; how to respond when faced with such stimulating words? your powers of articulation astound.

[–] Keelai (34982) 7 years ago

"Universal healthcare is bad every where it exists."

Not true. It's doing very well in my state. Some red states sabotaged it by refusing to expand medicaid and to advertise it so that healthy people wouldn't join causing the cost to raise. Internationally, foreigners are happy with their universal health insurance. Even Trump praised Australia's universal health insurance.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"Not true. It's doing very well in my state"

citation needed

" Internationally, foreigners are happy with their universal health insurance. "

of course people are happy with free health insurance but what affect does it have on the actual healthcare, health outcome, and the economy.

"Even Trump praised Australia's universal health insurance."

Well let's take a look:

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/publications/publishing.nsf/Content/cardio-pubs-review~cardio-pubs-review-05-currentenv~cardio-pubs-review-05-currentenv-6-eiih

www.aihw.gov.au/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=6012954759

www.smh.com.au › Business › Economy

https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2007/.../challenges-health-and-health-care-australia

And all of these numbers and articles are at least a year old. Lets look at the updated trend of the Australian economy:

www.focus-economics.com › Countries › Australia

www.businessinsider.com/10-key-themes-for-the-australian-economy-in-2016-2016-1

Also this does not take fully into consideration how much their economy is dependent on countries like America whose economy would crumble (is already crumbling) with increased entitlements.

Now lets look at actual health care and health outcomes in Australia:

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Australia/United-States/Health

http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/23/3/89.full

They stack up pretty close in overall quality, with Australia better in general quality but the US taking an edge in specialty treatment. But take into consideration the Australia Medicare also has a free market that is availible for those that can afford that does not have a bunch of regulations over it and that does not force young healthy people to pay for old sick people.

Also the population of Australia is a mare 24.13 million people. That is 13 times less than the US. The GDP per person in Australia is $49,927 US The US is $57,466 per capita. Now while that is more the population is so much greater...

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

...which means that the number of people on entitlements is much greater per capita as well. The $8000 per capita GDP difference is not enough to make up for the population difference. In order for the US to have a healthcare system equivalent to Australia we would have to make right around 13 times more GDP per capita than Australia.

But hey what do I know about Math and numbers. I am just a dumb Trump voter. Oh wait even Trump supports this Australia plan that we can't possible afford. I am so confused now. Do I think Trump is an idiot now?

[–] Keelai (34982) 7 years ago

Most of your links were bad - either behind a wall or a general search result page.

The few links that were good just makes my point so I'm wondering if you're actually agreeing with me. Some quotes from your links:

"An unhealthy population reduces workforce participation and productivity, and negatively affects living standards within the community." I agree.

"The A$ is lower and so are borrowing rates: business conditions are significantly better; the unemployment rate is stable at worst; and the economic outlook is more robust." A healthy Australian economy. Great!

A few health stats comparing Australians and Americans:
"Australia has more hospital beds than Americans and a higher life expectancy 80 years ranked #1 compared to 76 years ranked 30.
Americans are fatter than Australians.
Australia has more physicians.
Quality of health care in Australia is 41% higher in Australia.
6x more HIV in U.S."
Again, I agree that they have better heathcare and therefore are healthier and live longer than Americans.

Universal health care in the U.S. would actually be closer to the German model. Multi-payer, compulsory, employer-based, highly regulated, and fee-for-service. Your math sounds made-up since Germany's GDP can handle their healthcare insurance just fine. The biggest roadblock is that our politicians are receiving bribes from heathcare and big pharm lobbyists so they are working against consumers.

My state heavily advertises ACA and the governor threatened the insurers if any pulled out of ACA then they would be denied all government money for several programs. There are also strict guidelines that the insurers must continue to follow in case Trump tries to weaken the ACA.

Kicking elderly people out of nursing homes to have them die in the street isn't the way to go. If Trump and the Republicans are too stupid to improve ACA, then let the Democrats finish the job. It can't be rocket science since all major countries have it.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"Most of your links were bad - either behind a wall or a general search result page.

The few links that were good just makes my point so I'm wondering if you're actually agreeing with me. Some quotes from your links:"

hahah suggesting anything that disagrees with you is a bad article. Besides I do not like web articles for 'proof' of something. Google sucks at finding info on complex topics and nearly every accredited researcher in any field agree that web articles are the worse source of information.

The rest of your points missed the most important factor. AMERICA HAS 13 TIMES MORE PEOPLE THAN AUSTRALIA

Now I am leaving for the day and you are not worth continuing with for now. We'll see how I feel tomorrow.

[–] FordFairlane (299) 7 years ago

Run away little bitch. Your lies are fooling no one. And speaking as someone with free healthcare, I get better care than you do and I don't have to worry about losing my house when I get sick.

Make sure you and your buddy suck that dick all the way down. Next time you wanna talk about other countries, make sure your not talking to people from those countries that know you to be lying and spreading lies. Fucking cunt.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"Run away little bitch."

just because I do not spend 24 hours a day 7 days a week bitching about Trump on a movie discussion board does not mean I am running away. Just that I had better things to do.

"Your lies are fooling no one"

I have literally lied about nothing.

"And speaking as someone with free healthcare, I get better care than you do and I don't have to worry about losing my house when I get sick. "

OH you probably do get better healthcare than me, but you are not getting it for Free. Nothing in this world is free. Just because you are pathetic and have someone else paying it for you, does not mean it is free. The only way it is 'free' is if the government makes its doctors slaves holding them at gun point demanding they provide service for free. That is called slavery. Who in there right mind would become a doctor or work to do a great job when they are slaves?

"Make sure you and your buddy suck that dick all the way down."

That is a homophobic statement. Not surprising coming from a 'progressive' liberal.

" Next time you wanna talk about other countries, make sure your not talking to people from those countries that know you to be lying and spreading lies"

Than give me the facts numbers statistics and breakdown of your healthcare, economy and social political state in your country; make sure you keep in mind the affect that population and demographics have on these categories. Instead of spouting of buzz points give me the evidence. If it is good evidence I will have to reevaluate my conclusions. If you just give me shit, you just prove I have done more research than you.

"Fucking cunt."

Now a sexist comment? wow you are making progressive look real tolerant and inclusive right now. good job.

[–] brux (14730) 7 years ago

And more than 13 times the GDP ... whatever your point is, it is ignorant.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

the US has 13 times the population but only about $8000 more per capita GDP a year. In order for the US to maintain a welfare system equivalent to Australia we would have to make right around 13 times the GDP to sustain such a system.

[–] Keelai (34982) 7 years ago

"hahah suggesting anything that disagrees with you is a bad article."

Haha, you're pretending to be stupid again when I win the argument. Obviously, you didn't expect me to actually read any of your linked articles.

How come a "computer techie" like yourself doesn't understand what a bad link is? And doesn't know how to properly link to an actual article instead of an error page? How come you don't know how to create a clickable link within your replies?

"Besides I do not like web articles for 'proof' of something."
You say only after all of your articles prove my point.

"Google sucks at finding info on complex topics and nearly every accredited researcher in any field agree that web articles are the worse source of information."
How come a "computer techie" doesn't know how to google?

"AMERICA HAS 13 TIMES MORE PEOPLE THAN AUSTRALIA"
Yeah, so? We have a GDP that's 14.3x larger. Does having more people mean we shouldn't have public education nor mass transit too? Indonesia has 255 million people, is poor and still implemented universal healthcare.

"We'll see how I feel tomorrow."
I guess your head must hurt from trying to formulate a rational thought. You still didn't answer about what to do with the elderly in nursing homes.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"Obviously, you didn't expect me to actually read any of your linked articles. "

I would not have given you them unless i wanted you to read them. Just because some of what it said supports your position does not mean the article fully supports it. It is a little more complex than that.

"How come a "computer techie" like yourself doesn't understand what a bad link is? And doesn't know how to properly link to an actual article instead of an error page?"

I just checked the links and they are perfectly fine. What browser are you using? I know how to link a page but not all pages are supported by all web browsers.

"You say only after all of your articles prove my point"

if you think they proved your point you did not read them in entirety. Also web articles are more like snippets of the actual facts. Try reading a book. If you want the actual information that is what you have to do, actually read; gasp for air; a book. Look at the web articles sources. Find that information which is usually another web article off another web article. Go all the way to you get to the peer reviewed sources. That is what I did when I was taking economics classes. It is not as easy as you make it seem and I am not doing the research for you. Find the full information yourself. Just stop criticizing what you don't understand until you have at least taken just 1 economics class.

"Yeah, so? We have a GDP that's 14.3x larger. "

No we don't. Australia GDP per capita in 2016 was $49,000 the US was $57,000. I already gave that number.

" Does having more people mean we shouldn't have public education nor mass transit too? "

It just means it is a lot more expensive the more people you have to support. And the more programs and entitlements that the government offers makes it nearly impossible to keep paying for all those services. Why do you think are national debt is in the trillions of dollars?

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"How come a "computer techie" doesn't know how to google?"

god it is frustrating to argue with such ignorance and stupidity. Google does not provide the sources of information only gives you links to web articles and you have to go through those articles citations to find the sources and often times you have to go through 2 to 3 more articles till you get to the peer reviewed studies or books. Meaning you are getting a very filtered version of the facts.

I hate this google generation. Not one thought for yourself, just 'google it'. Google is a tool like a hammer. It serves its purpose but it is not precise.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"I guess your head must hurt from trying to formulate a rational thought. You still didn't answer about what to do with the elderly in nursing homes."

Or I was just going home and getting ready to eat dinner and sleep. I suppose that is not possible though, must be that I am an idiot that gets head aches when I have to think. Funny thing is; nothing you have said has been intellectually challenging so why would my head hurt.

"You still didn't answer about what to do with the elderly in nursing homes."

You never asked the question about elderly in nursing homes. But to answer that, first of all that has nothing to do with health insurance. Nursing homes are paid for more like hotel stays. most insurances won't touch them. But it should be the responsibility of the elderly themselves or their families to pay for it if it is not affordable. Why is it my job to pay for someone else grandparents? You liberals seem to want to make everyone accountable for your bad decisions or poor life management.

[–] Keelai (34982) 7 years ago

"Google sucks at finding info on complex topics"

I reiterate that you don't know how to google. You also don't appear to understand what a restricted page is and a google result which is what a few of your links are instead of webpages supporting your arguments. I assume you made up your nonsense. Your webpages only supported my arguments.

"Just stop criticizing what you don't understand until you have at least taken just 1 economics class." Then I can continue to criticize.

"...nursing homes...nothing to do with health insurance."
Seriously?.
70% of 65+ year olds will need a nursing home. Statistically, you and/or your wife are likely to end up in one.
Average cost is $4,000-$8,000 a month which medicare doesn't pay for - only medicaid. This means you have to spend down your life savings in order to qualify for medicaid. 64% of all nursing home residents depend on medicaid. If Trump destroys medicaid, people will die.
http://clark.com/insurance/facts-about-nursing-home-costs/

"You liberals seem to want to make everyone accountable for your bad decisions or poor life management."
It's actually the red states that will suffer the most.
Refer to the U.S. map near the bottom:
http://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-medicaid-who-could-lose-coverage-under-senate-healthcare-bill-2017-6

"But it should be the responsibility of the elderly themselves or their families to pay for it if it is not affordable."
How do you pay for something if it's not affordable?

[–] Keelai (34982) 7 years ago

[deleted]

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

I am going to say this as a closing statement with you because continuing would be pointless.

Google is NOT a great provider of information beyond an introductory level. It useful for finding very specific information based on the search you do. the problem with that is you are the one typing in the search bar which means if you are looking for political or economic issues you are likely going get only the articles that are confirming you biases. Also consider that google search engine has been demonstrated to have a left leaning bias in their search results is only going to add to you getting information that confirms your left wing bias. Google is NOT a good source of information for understanding economics because there is too much information on the topic and google will not give you a good direction to go for understanding. If you use it to search for economic definitions it is helpful. But understanding how those definitions apply in a market is more complex and requires, gasp for air, reading a fucking book or 2.

As time goes on I am getting more and more depressed by the fact that people, specifically college level people, are getting the vast majority of their information from google. This is not a good thing. You may gain specific knowledge but without some-kind of dedication you will never have understanding of how that knowledge is applied.

[–] Keelai (34982) 7 years ago

You are confusing "Google" the specific search engine with the verb which is generic so I'll clarify. Use ANY search engine you're comfortable with to search for information that endorses your argument(s). I'm still amused that your links repeatedly supported MY arguments.

I have no problem finding general or specific information when I use my computer. I find it more difficult when I use a phone which may be part of your problem if that's what you use. I still don't believe you know how to navigate the "Information Highway". I can't believe you're blaming "liberals" because you don't know how to properly "google".

My public library system is excellent and I read plenty. If I suggested books for you to read (which I have done in previous posts with others) I doubt that you would do it. Therefore, it's more expedient and convenient to just post a link.

If a fair and unbiased internet is important to you, then let your voice be heard and contact the FCC. If we lose net neutrality, then the ISP companies will be able to control and promote which websites you can go on by messing with the speed and charging extra money. Fight for a free and open internet! Let your friends and family know.
https://consumersunion.org/netneutrality/

[–] db20db (17297) 7 years ago

Muddled thinking leads to muddled writing which is why he/she/it has confused many on here recently.

[–] Keelai (34982) 7 years ago

He should replace Sean Spicer as Trump's Press Secretary. He's obviously qualified for the job.

[–] Keelai (34982) 7 years ago

Affordable healthcare has nothing to do with your nonsensical GDP argument which you made up.
Affordable universal healthcare in foreign countries is possible because they don't have healthcare lobbyists bribing politicians to keep healthcare expensive.

You can't have affordable health care and large profits at the same time since it's a contradiction.

The solution is to introduce price controls or competition to control price. For instance, Medicaid has price controls. Trump mentioned competiton for insurance but he won't do it because he's in the swamp. You need honest politicans looking out for the American people. Compare American vs Canadian prices:

Abilify $2994 vs Aripiprazole $88
Januvia $1144 vs Sitagliptin Phosphate $146
Cialis $2526 vs Tadalafil $194
Now ask, why is it illegal for Amercans to buy cheaper Canadian drugs? Lobbyists.
________________________________________
"What if no rich people are investing or developing American goods and services...How will the middle class buy American products that no longer exist? ..and the middle class is still poor and without jobs? "

You have a stereotyped belief that middle-class people only work for rich people. Most jobs are with small businesses and are produced by the middle-class. Usually large companies started off as small ones. Yes, Apple was once a small company. And Steve Jobs was raised in a blue-collar household.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"Most jobs are with small businesses and are produced by the middle-class."

This is a lie. Site a source of this information.

[–] Keelai (34982) 7 years ago

I already did in a reply to you about four days ago. I even linked it. It looks like you're not able to find some of my replies. It's better to click on the bell at the top of the page on the right and then scroll down the message replies according to dates.

That notification system is an immense improvement over IMDB's message board.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

If you did it should be easy to copy and past it. all I remember from your links was a bunch of liberal 'news' web articles in relation to healthcare or taxes. nothing specific about the trends of hiring in the middle class compared to the vast majority of people employees by cooperation.

I mean your argument does not even make logical sense. If the small middle class business employees a large number of people they would be corporations themselves. I mean Walmart and McDonald employee millions. it would take a minimum of a million small businesses hiring at least ten employees to come close to just matching those 2 corporations.

[–] Keelai (34982) 7 years ago

It's more logical for you to just scroll up - it's a consolidated message about 6 days ago. Neither link was from a news site.

It's odd that you brag about knowing macroeconomics, but you're unaware that small businesses create most new jobs. My local politicians have made it an issue for years to attract entrepreneurs to help create jobs and it worked with a thriving economy and greater tax revenue.

Also there's a second reply about your healthcare issue about five days ago. I found it interesting that you mentioned yourself and a wife, but not your "kid". I guess you forgot that you're supposed to have one.

[–] brux (14730) 7 years ago

Universal health care is in every developed country but the US. All of those countries pay about half of what the US pays, and have better outcomes. The only characteristic Trump voters seem to have is how they can ignore facts and reality and insult people.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"Universal health care is in every developed country but the US. All of those countries pay about half of what the US pays, and have better outcomes."

How about make a list of these countries that have better healthcare, pay less into the system and have better outcomes. Than show me comparability charts to the population and how their economies are holding up since the universal health care was instituted. Because in many cases the facts of these do not hold up under scrutiny. show me the evidence.

"The only characteristic Trump voters seem to have is how they can ignore facts and reality and insult people."

hahaha whom has been doing the insulting during this discussion? pay attention a little bit. And I only argued facts and reality. All I have seen from the other side is buzzwords and a few articles written by socialist like Ed Balls and Larry Summers.

But go ahead and keep lumping all Trump voters together as ignorant bigots, see how far that gets the democratic party.

[–] brux (14730) 7 years ago

Do you think after reading your blathering neverending nonsense posts I am going to undertake to educate you? First, these are well-known facts, you probably do not hear it on right-wing radio.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

No point in arguing with the willfully ignorant. good bye.

[–] brux (14730) 7 years ago

With you these "discussions" you seem to be having is a way to bolster a very weak ego that is scared and hopeless by insisting on things that are familiar to you to blot out all the cracks in your reality. You have a lot of hard lessons to learn and the longer you put it off the worse it will get. It doesn't really help to call people who disagree with you ignorant ... that is not what ignorance means in case you don't know.

Ignorance is about ignoring facts that do not add up instead of trying to reconcile them, often because the facts you think you do know are incorrect but you do not want to let them go. The willful part is a bit insulting because most ignorant people do not really exert their will because it requires too much energy investment and they are busy trying to hold it together as they are.

What is the main reason you are posting like mad here about health care and Donald Trump and your Conservative ideas?

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"You have a lot of hard lessons to learn and the longer you put it off the worse it will get"

I have learned true hard lessons. I have killed, i have seen dead children. I am responsible for the death of 3 entire families, called in an airstrike and the taliban was using families as human shield. I do not think there are harder lessons to learn than learning life and death.

"It doesn't really help to call people who disagree with you ignorant ... that is not what ignorance means in case you don't know."

how do you think me calling you ignorant is different from you calling me ignorant. The difference is I actually know the facts of what I am talking about; where as you have never said anything beyond buzzwords.

"the facts you think you do know are incorrect but you do not want to let them go"

no one has demonstrated how my facts that I know are incorrect. again all I have seen are CNN and other liberal machine buzzwords and half truths.

"What is the main reason you are posting like mad here about health care and Donald Trump and your Conservative ideas?"

because I am bored. I am here trying to kill time, I came to the Trump board and saw a lot of stupid arguments and false claims and refuted them. ONly to be called a racist, bigot, sexist, ignorant Trump Supporter. None of those things are true. I respect people like Ben Shapiro that try to hold conservative values while remaining intellectually honest. I admire people like Sam Harris whom even if I disagree with can respect their methods. You offer nothing to respect or admire. You represent the regressive left that Dave Rubin even had to walk away from because you are intolerant and are bent on destroying America and all western values in support of a globalized one world government where you think everyone will be equal, which is delusional.

[–] brux (14730) 7 years ago

Maybe he is a little over the top, but I share his contempt for Trump as you should if you cared about the American people. In the coming decades the US has real challenges. Jobs are disappearing, retraining is necessary, and Trump is setting things up so that only the children of the very rich will qualify for education and jobs, and cutting taxes so that the safety net for people will be stressed or broken. Automation and globalization are both things Trump has given lip service to, but he has done nothing but push them further along ... and meanwhile his so-called deal with the Carrier corporation is fizzling and American jobs are going away there despite what they promised under the fake pressure of the election.

Liberals are richer and more educated than people like you, and they care more about their fellow Americans than you as well. The real question is why are you and other Trump supporters so blind to reality, and so arrogant and insulting about it at the same time. You are more likely to be hurting than most Liberals pal, you should start adjusting your bad attitude.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"I share his contempt for Trump as you should if you cared about the American people."

This is just an intellectual dishonest form of arguing. Suggesting that any Trump Voter just doesn't care about the American people. that is just lazy.

"Jobs are disappearing, retraining is necessary, "

This is a response to the last ten years of policy. Businesses are fleeing from places that tax them into bankruptcy. Trump has only been president for 6 months. The economy usually takes about 10 years to 'catch up' to a presidents administration. It does not happen overnight.

"Trump is setting things up so that only the children of the very rich will qualify for education and jobs"

Explain this? proof? evidence? policy goals and objectives? Tax plans? anything besides CNN/BBC buzzwords?

"Automation and globalization are both things Trump has given lip service to, but he has done nothing but push them further along ..."

There we have it. Your agenda given in your own words. You want globalization. I don't. I want US autonomy and success and not be so linked with other countries. So we are always going to push for different things because our goals are completely different.

" and meanwhile his so-called deal with the Carrier corporation is fizzling and American jobs are going away there despite what they promised under the fake pressure of the election."

That is because he shouldn't strong arm companies into staying. I am not a huge supporter of Trump by any means, he was better than the other choices but I would have preferred Cruz or Rand Paul over Trump. I want small government and for it to stay out of the economy. Trump is not pushing for these things and does not have a clear policy. still better than Sanders or Clinton though...

[–] brux (14730) 7 years ago

>> This is just an intellectual dishonest form of arguing.

I am sure you think you would recognize that. You seem to think that strongly stating opinions is a valid form of argument. You also seem to think you can read into people's words things that you like or do not like, such a globalization. Also seem to think you just post to hell and it makes your case.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

Assuming that any Trump voter/supporter or even Trump himself does not care about the American people is just completely intellectually lazy. It is purposefully remaining ignorant of what anyone that disagrees with you(liberals) is about.

I understand the globalist and the liberals efforts/goals and what they want, I just think it is wrong and will lead to a worse situation. You have offered nothing opinions and all I have is your word's to judge your beliefs.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"Liberals are richer and more educated than people like you,"

So are these liberals the rich that keep getting richer? And the reason liberals get better "education" is because the universities are progressive liberal paradises. I know, I have been pursuing even nothing but science degrees and still somehow have to deal with liberal politics even in engineering and computer science classes. it is everywhere.

"the real question is why are you and other Trump supporters so blind to reality"

I am not a Trump supporter, i voted for him but I call it like I see it. I give him a fair shake and if he does something I think is right I praise it, if he does something I disagree with I don't. very simple. And in 'reality' that is what we should all do with our politician. Don't support anyone push and criticize them to get the policy you want. the real question is why do you not support Trump? in many ways he pushes for Democratic like agendas far more than other republicans. Seems to me he 'pretends' to be conservative but doesn't really seem to push a conservative agenda.

" other Trump supporters so blind to reality, and so arrogant and insulting about it at the same time."

I could simply say that Trump detractors are just as blind to reality. And though I may appear arrogant here (like i said before that is because I am dealing with a lot of ignorance) it is not a proper reflation of how I respond in real life. And again if you go through the history of conversations, be honest, who is insulting who?

...

[–] brux (14730) 7 years ago

The other thing you Trump supporters to is lie about what you are. Consistently there are a lot of Trump supporters who say they are not Republicans, or deny being Trump supporters. You want it all because you think if you do not say what you are and what you stand for no one will figure it out.

Yeah, you could say ... that is what you do, you just say things. Trump detractors comment on real things that Trump has done, undeniably stupid things that he said or believes. You Trump supporters don't bother to listen of think about it, so you think there is nothing behind it. There is not arguing with you people, you'd have to actually be affected be something for you to stop jabbering and see reality.

If you think I am insulting you, from your thoughtless 3 post reply, I don't see any other way to engage you. I've been though it before, just more wrong statements and insults to Liberals and Liberalism that you do not seem to understand what it is.

>> in many ways he pushes for Democratic like agendas far more than other republicans

No way that discussing or arguing is going to resolve a comment like that? Or that you say you praise him when he does something you like and don't do anything when he doesn't - that is mindless support, yet in another sentence you say you are not a supporter.

If you are in college, you should open your eyes and learn, because you think you know it all already.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"If you are in college, you should open your eyes and learn, because you think you know it all already. "

College is indoctrination grounds. I was in the military before I went to college went all around the world got first hand knowledge. Then went to school and heard all the lies about places I was just at a couple of years prior.

I am still in school and it has its uses but if you think college is the answer to ignorance I weep for your shortcoming intelligence.

And just because I know more than you does not mean I think I know it all.

[–] brux (14730) 7 years ago

>> I went to college went all around the world got first hand knowledge.

That's a laugh.

>> if you think college is the answer to ignorance

So in the military is that where you learned to listen so badly ... I doubt. Why do you and right-wingers in general always take something someone has said and then twist it into something they did not say? The cause of your ignorance is that you hardwired your brains to refuse to really see things to over-simplify the world.

>> And just because I know more than you does not mean I think I know it all.

That line tells me you know very little except how to twist words in a way that makes it impossible for people to discuss anything with you, which you interpret as being not-ignorant. Bully for you. The people I have known like that had parents/fathers with substance abuse problems and ended up alcoholic themselves until they realize what they are doing. I'd bet you are already a drinker to excess.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"That's a laugh."

You should have included the word "before I went to college" otherwise you are misquoting me and taking my words out of context.

"So in the military is that where you learned to listen so badly ... I doubt. Why do you and right-wingers in general always take something someone has said and then twist it into something they did not say? The cause of your ignorance is that you hardwired your brains to refuse to really see things to over-simplify the world."

you're an idiot. This statement is just all nonsense. You do not even know who told me what but you assume that I am twisting their words to say something the did not when you do not even know what they said or how I twisted it. The ignorance in this statement is just utterly astounding.

"That line tells me you know very little except how to twist words in a way that makes it impossible for people to discuss anything with you, which you interpret as being not-ignorant"

I like how you think your ignorance and false assumptions would fix my ignorance and false assumptions. It is a demonstration of how little you actually understand.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"You are more likely to be hurting than most Liberals pal"

how so? the only thing hurting me is property taxes that keep going through the roof and Obamacare making it literally impossible to get my wife health insurance. The healthcare market place and blue cross have completely fucked me and now I can not even get an insurance outside the market place until open enrollment. And I can afford it. It has nothing to do with money but I slipped into a bureaucratic nightmare. If the healthcare was a free market I would not be in this position. But I am glad to know some asshole that went there entire life without being responsible and getting health insurance waited till they were old and sick will have an easier time getting health insurance than my young and healthy wife. so yeah thanks Democrats. and my fucking property tax is more than my mortgage. So thanks again democrats.
As far as I can see the only ones hurting me are you fucking liberals with your lack of accountability and demands that I pay for your fuck ups.

" you should start adjusting your bad attitude."

This is just more buzzwords. I could just say the same thing to you.

[–] brux (14730) 7 years ago

If you are hurting now for medical insurance you better hope like hell trumpcare doesn't pass. There is no such thing as a free market, and any powerful enough corporation sets to work to make as strong a monopoly as possible. And example of the free market is people buying up rights to drugs and raising prices 60 times like the EPI pen.

You think Republicans had nothing to do with your property tax? Sounds like you bought more than you can afford and want to blame others for your bad decision. Liberal's lack of accountability? You toss around words that are meaningless, that somehow you ascribe meaning to in your head from maybe someone who told you all the problems of the world are from Liberals. There is a big mass of people like you know that allow uncritical right-wing radio a mainline to your brains and do anything they say. You are a danger to yourself and the country.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"If you are hurting now for medical insurance you better hope like hell trumpcare doesn't pass. "

I have gone over some of the plan, or what has been released of it. It actually would directly address and fix the regulation that is preventing my wife from getting insurance. So in my personal case it would fix my issue. That is not to say it will help everyone.

"There is no such thing as a free market, and any powerful enough corporation sets to work to make as strong a monopoly as possible. And example of the free market is people buying up rights to drugs and raising prices 60 times like the EPI pen."

I may be paranoid about the government but man you take paranoia to a whole new level. Yes corporations are so evil for wanting to profit and government is so benevolent and only wants to help people. Wow. Just wow.

"You think Republicans had nothing to do with your property tax?"

The state I live in has not had republican control for over 40 years. And is seeing a mass exodus of 10000 home owners leaving a month. the tax situation here is out of control. That is because of Democrats.

"Sounds like you bought more than you can afford and want to blame others for your bad decision. "

I can afford it dumb ass. What I can't afford is taxes that keep going up without control. When you pay a mortgage and the taxes are on the value of the house, if suddenly the government decides to keep arbitrarily raise those taxes pretty soon you are in a situation were the taxes are more than the mortgage even if it didn't start that way. You have probably never bought anything and had mommy and daddy paying everything for you so you may not understand how this works.

Now I am done with you. It would be self abuse to continue to argue with one that has the intelligence of a brick wall.

[–] brux (14730) 7 years ago

>> the regulation that is preventing my wife from getting insurance.

Your claim, so what regulation is that?

>> corporations are so evil for wanting to profit and government is so benevolent and only wants to help people.

You push your own agenda onto my words, I never said that. Wanting to profit is one thing, but profiteering, buying the government, capturing the regulatory capability, breaking it, putting in sweetheart deals and tax breaks goes way beyond profiting - and them blaming government on top of it to the corruption some large private industries cause goes way beyond that.

I think you know that, of course, so this is why I am not bothering with your dishonest BS. A bunch of right-wing slogans and burst into flames and evaporate when you scratch the surface.

To not figure in taxes when you buy real estate and then blame Liberals somehow for your bad budgeting decisions is just typical of a Republican who whines about personal responsibility for other people and has no idea how about this own lack of it. Sell it and get something you can afford.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"Your claim, so what regulation is that?"

The healthcare market place. When my wife's original insurance company went out of business (thanks to Obamacare destabilizing the insurance companies) i had to do a special enrollment through the marketplace into Blue Cross blue shield. At the end of the year I enrolled her into a new regular policy but Blue cross did not deactivate her special enrolled policy and kept both open. So I was making my payments for one but not the other which I did not know was still active. So they cancelled and closed both for nonpayment even though I was paying my premiums, which had skyrocketed since Obamacare came into effect. Now I tried going back and escalating my case through both Blue Cross and through the market place which actually stilled showed her insurance as active even though it was deactive on blue crosses end; in both cases I was denied. So I cancelled her plan on the marketplace as well so both systems showed the correct information. This was after 4 months of escalation back and forth between the insurance and the marketplace. Now a month after I termed on the marketplace Blue cross gave me a number to pay them and they would reactivate. I payed. But because now I termed on the marketplace there is no way for me to reactivate. I now need to open a new escalation and deliver a letter to the marketplace explaining all of this with documents supporting everyone of my claims. I literally would need a lawyer to sort this out. so yeah, not a fan of government run healthcare.

"You push your own agenda onto my words..."

I hear a lot of complaining but not one solution. You may not agree with my solutions but at least I offer some. What is yours? because if the corporations have bought the government and they are both corrupt how is giving the government more control a solution? You should be a Rand Paul supporter or if having to choose between Sanders, Clinton or Trump; Trump was the only one even pretending.

[–] brux (14730) 7 years ago

OK, well I cannot really discuss this with you if you are going to load every sentence you write with so many taken-for-granted facts. It is what I meant when I said you think you already know better.

Just one sentence:
>> When my wife's original insurance company went out of business (thanks to Obamacare destabilizing the insurance companies)

I now have to buy into your whole scenario. Even if I was willing to it would not help. I have no idea about your wife's insurance company or the reason it went out of business. I do know that health insurance companies are some of the most profitable most dishonest companies, and that they spend tens of millions of dollars getting politicians to do what they want. Before ObamaCare rates were increasing and coverage was decreasing and being denied. You could think you have insurance, but loophole or denial of coverage was common. CIGNA CEO Wendel Potter did lectures and wrote books from the inside about what the health care industry did and does.

At least with ObamaCare there are standards and regulation, but you seem to think if you remove those regulations things will be better. One of those regulations is that the companies must spend "X" per-centage of their premiums on health care and return then if they do not. They also cannot cancel coverage. Obama and the Democrats tried to compromise with the insurance industry giving them the subscribers they need to make money. Anyway, ObamaCare was an advance and things without it would/will be worse. Other countries do not have these problems. 0 people go bankrupt in other countries with universal care. This is not some commie claim. See how long it takes to even dissect on sentence ... this is how you make it impossible to discuss. There is not a simple answer, particularly from the right-wing and profiteers.

[–] Keelai (34982) 7 years ago

"The healthcare market place and blue cross have completely fucked me and now I can not even get an insurance outside the market place until open enrollment."

You talk a great deal about economics, but you don't seem to know how to manage your own family finances properly. You also blame others for your own mistakes and lack of knowledge.

Why wasn't your wife and child on your policy? So your kid has no insurance now? Why weren't you paying your bills? Why hasn't your wife enrolled in short term health insurance? Why didn't you check your wife's information on the website? Why not just purchase a private health plan that's not a part of Obamacare since you hate it so much anyway?

"I literally would need a lawyer to sort this out."

If the error was not your fault (I bet it was), why not file a formal complaint to your state's insurance regulator? There should be a government agency you can file a complaint to on the back of your bill or invoice. You should have been printing any proof of their wrongdoing off the website as evidence. If you're paying bills then they provide a service. Period. Sounds like you don't know how to navigate a website properly. Why would you cancel anything? Get them to correct their own mistake. Sheesh!

Your problems with cost and closing insurance companies sounds like you're in a red state where your politicians are sabotaging it. My local politicians love it so it's thriving where I am. You could always move.

Property taxes are local. Why did you choose to live in an area with high or rising property taxes? Why didn't you plan for rising costs and/or emergencies instead of living paycheck to paycheck? I asked this question in a post a while back, why are you posting messages instead of making extra money freelancing or consulting?

You and Trump like to blame others. Take responsibility.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"To not figure in taxes when you buy real estate and then blame Liberals somehow for your bad budgeting decisions is just typical of a Republican who whines about personal responsibility for other people and has no idea how about this own lack of it. Sell it and get something you can afford."

You are an idiot. TAXES GO UP. even my lawyer could not estimate how much. How is it bad budgeting on my part when no one could have predicted the insane rate the taxes would increase. I am not asking for a government bail out stupid. I am not asking for free college. I am simply trying to get people elected that will stop the tax increases. That is NOT the democrats that will do that.

[–] brux (14730) 7 years ago

So you bought a property knowing taxes go up and not planing for it? Here in CA we have Prop 13 where taxes are frozen until the next sale. Not being able to predict something is the same as not planning for it.

Prop 13 was meant for people who bought their houses so they would not be financially ruined as taxes kept rising. Corporations grabbed the same loophole, and what has happened is that "special assessments" are levied on homeowners, but not on corporations ... and the assessments are all the same, whether you own a tiny cottage or a giant mansion. This is the power and control of the very wealthy and corporations. It is not Liberals. Almost every Liberal is in favor of fixing the tax system to make it progressive again so the rich pay their fair share.

Check out a book about the tax system called "A Fine Mess" by T. R. Reid. You want to blame government or the Democrats for taxes going up, but the real reason, not that many Democrats did not go along is that the corporations and the very rich keep legislating themselves tax breaks and dumping the burden on regular working people - that is making the tax system more and more regressive.

You are seeing the wrong problem, so how can you act, speak or vote coherently on this issue, and as we see, as more people accept this Republican/Corporate fantasy point of view things only get worse - but hey, just blame the Democrats or government.

The only way you can hope to have a say in anything in this country is through government, so you better start investing yourself in making it work for you, and that means questioning things that have not worked in the last 30 years.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

Oh my freaking god. No wonder you are so poorly informed. Look at the people you are getting your information from.

T.R. Reid? a journalist for the Washington Post? seriously? Can't find a single accountant, economist or even IRS working to confirm you nonsense? seriously? washington post journalist gives you conspiracies on corporate tax manipulations and you use that as you source?

wow fucking wow. What a fucking idiot.

go read some books by Thomas Sowell, Milton Friedman, John Maynard Keynes, Murray Rothbard or just about any other actual economist and then come talk to me.

fuck sake. T.R. Reid. Fuck this is why arguing with people like you is fucking annoying. I quote actaul books by actual experts. You use Journalist as your source. fuck. what a waste of time with you.

[–] brux (14730) 7 years ago

Cool, thanks for telling me who you are. You must be holding down the center all by yourself today ... getting overtime for posting this drivel. The great thing about a real book is there are footnotes and facts you can actually check, if you care. You must just be starting out, your comments are straight out of the Libertarian flowchart. Enjoy selling out your country and yourself ... no wonder you can't do a real estate financial plan or afford health insurance. Hope you get tired of the tastes of Kool-Aid someday and decided to try using your head for something other than a suppository.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

you use journalist as sources of economic information. I use Economist. And I am the one drinking kool-aid?

And fuck you about real estate finanical plan and afford health insurance. I can afford health insurance and I have a proper financial plan for my property. your piece of shit democrat friends are creating an outragiously increased taxes situation and have got their claws dug so deep into the healthcare field that policies get in the way of allowing those of us who can afford insurance can't get. This is your financial plan. Your economic plan and your tax plan. And it is a fucking disaster.

Next time you try arguing this shit try to at least have one expert lined up as a source and not just fucking journalist. you fucking ignorant waste of human life.

No go properly fuck yourself and stop trying to let the government fuck me.

[–] FordFairlane (299) 7 years ago

you know how you know youve got him, because hes losing his shit. When he thinks hes still in control of the conversation he just acts intellectually superior with crap put downs.

In the famous words of Shao Khan, FINISH HIM!!! lol

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

Yes he provided nothing but shit information from liberal journalist and I counter with information from actual books by actual economist and somehow he has got me.

Not familiar with the concept of righteous wrath are you?

You are the reason while I will never consider any positions by the left or liberals. As far as I can tell your side is filled with fucking retards that have no information outside what the liberal media has told them.

If anyone is actual reading these arguments I hope they can see that.

No you can go fuck yourself too.

[–] FordFairlane (299) 7 years ago

All these flavours, and you choose to be salty. Don't you ever get tired of being wrong as fuck? Your republican heroes have total control, why are t they helping you out? Maybe it's because they don't care about you. Trump sure as fuck doesn't yet you suck his cock and go blind to anything he does wrong calling it a "liberal conspiracy".

It's really funny that you don't see how pathetic you are. You're like a little lamb putting on some boots so the farmer chooses you to fuck.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

All i hear is "blah blah blah I am a liberal fucktard that can do nothing but insult people and be a ignorant hypocrite.blah blah"

[–] therefdotcom (964) 7 years ago

hmm, so you basically fucked your own life and that of your wife and child and now blame it on liberals. well done, mate.

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

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[–] FordFairlane (299) 7 years ago

lol look how angry you are. Who knew the truth hurt your butt so much 😂

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

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[–] FordFairlane (299) 7 years ago

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[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

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[–] [email protected] (5926) 7 years ago

I've been following this heated exchange and I see you brought up Dr. Sowell. He is my hero.

He is a freaking Economics god! His books are filled with so much no nonsense common sense that I fear the average liberal's head would explode reading them! ha

I love to watch him on youtube , especially some of the older clips when he'd debate socialists and liberals in the seventies. They would lecture him and "explain" to him just what problems the black community is facing.

Ha! Aside from being stupid, what's chutzpah! of course he just made mincemeat out of all their stupid arguments.

[–] FordFairlane (299) 7 years ago

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[–] [email protected] (5926) 7 years ago

I see someone let you out of your cage again! LOL

[–] FordFairlane (299) 7 years ago

Oh thats a good one, honestly its one of your best. My only concern is that in 12 hours thats the best come back you could come up with?

Youd think with your practice against homosexuals, the poor, the brown, women and of course common decency, that youd have better come backs than that. You disappoint me.

[–] [email protected] (5926) 7 years ago

"In 12 hours"? You mistakenly assume I spent 12 hours thinking about YOUR post. LOL No, I actually came up with that as soon as I read your silliness and latest juvenile insult.

I "practice" against homosexuals, the poor, the brown and women? Well, I AM poor and female!

But you "know" everything about me from a few posts??? Now, WHO is the one putting people into boxes??

So sorry to disappoint you. What would you prefer? A nastier, sharper comeback? I was considering asking you if your mommy let you use the computer again.

And, if you are so worried about better "comebacks", incidentally, it's ONE word not TWO, you'd type "you'd" not "youd" twice. Hard to take someone seriously who does not have the hang of basic grammar rules yet! LOL

[–] FordFairlane (299) 7 years ago

Sweet moses, grammar is you upping the insult level? lol poor baby. AS for you being a woman, I couldnt care less. Is nice you live a fairy world were women dont hate other women though, must be nice there.

Seriously though, if pointing out typos and grammar checking internet posts is your biggest insults, Im going to lose interest. I know that would just make me another in a long line of men with better things to do than listen to you drone on about shit you obviously know very little about, but what can you do.

And dont you lie, you were tots thinking about me for 12 hours. Im a man showing you attention. And judging by your attitude towards people Im guessing thats a new thing for you. Dont worry though, there will be some white knight douchebag along shortly to "sort me out" for you.

I left you some more grammar issues to call me out on, I know you get off on that sort of thing. Dont say I never did anythgin for ya! ;)

[–] [email protected] (5926) 7 years ago

Grammar is "upping the insult level"??? No, just pointing out the obvious. You must be a graduate of a government (public) school. And the government does want a stupid populace. So much easier to push through their policies

And, oh yeah, you are JUST the type of man that I and most women dream about, an insulting pig mouth! LOL "A long line of men"? Seriously, you are just the type of "man" who thinks that women are panting over him. LOLOLOL

Actually, I don't need anymore attention from an abusive jerk. I already divorced one.

I will admit, you and your silliness ARE kinda interesting! I'd hate for YOU to lose interest!! ha ha

Sorry I can't be bothered with your "grammar issues". From what you have written so far, grammar is the LEAST of your problems little boy!

[–] FordFairlane (299) 7 years ago

See you call me abusive, but lets be on the same page. Im talking to you the way I am because of your beliefs, not because your woman. You do get that right?

Im showing your attitude the same destain I would anyone else thats believes themselves to be better and more deserving than others.

Ive read your comments, and honestly you disgust me. Perhaps one day youll gain empathy for your fellow human beings, even the shit ones. Until that day, I wish you well. I wont be responding anymore. Its not good for either of us.

[–] FordFairlane (299) 7 years ago

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[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

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[–] Apis (1624) 7 years ago

I don't understand his attitude when he says "let Obamacare fail". He obviously has no clue what consequences that will have for regular people. It sounds like a Trump version of "let them eat cake".

Of course, he never had to worry about paying medical bills. It must be a strange concept to him that there are people who can't pay their bills.

[–] Keelai (34982) 7 years ago

He has an obsession with Obama and wants to erase everything he had accomplished. He probably is a sociopath like people warned during the campaign.

[–] Apis (1624) 7 years ago

He apparently never asked himself what will happen to people in the meantime, between the failing of Obamacare and beginning of Trumpcare. I guess he thinks that nobody will get sick while waiting for the new system. That is so divorced from reality. It's not like healthcare is something that can wait while they invent a new one. He behaves like healthcare is one of his buildings - you demolish the old one and build a new one in its place, and in the meantime nobody lives there.