I heard the girl was over the age of consent in the UK, but NOT the US
So when does UK law supercede US law??
So when does UK law supercede US law??
Due to the fact it is the uk and not the US. share
MovieChat Forums > Prince Andrew Discussion > I heard the girl was over the age of con...
I'm going to keep posting this so that people understand. The girl was American. She was under the age of 18. So please read the US laws on child trafficking
https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceos/citizens-guide-us-federal-law-child-sex-trafficking
Also...
Ms Giuffre claimed in court papers in Florida she was forced to have sex with the prince on three occasions - in London, New York and on a private Caribbean island owned by Epstein - between 2001 and 2002, including when she was underage under Florida law.
from https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49411215
And
Ms Giuffre, now 38, claimed the duke, 61, sexually assaulted her on three occasions when she was 17 at Ghislaine Maxwell's home in London, in Epstein's mansion in New York and on Epstein's private island in the US Virgin Islands.
from https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-60393843
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You do realise "claimed" doesn't automatically mean it happened
shareAnd you realise that "claimed" doesn't automatically mean it didn't happen either.
shareDifference being you automatically believe it did otherwise you wouldn't have made the post
shareDo I believe that she was 17 when she with the prince? Yes. Do I believe that she was taken to the Prince by Epstein and Maxwell? Yes.
That's all I need to believe for that to be illegal according to US law.
No crime commited.
This was a civil suit.
So no crime. So nothing illegal
You her dad of something. You seem to pushing this very personally
So why did she get paid?
Considering I'm female, no, I'm not her dad. I'm just someone who has spent the last 25 years volunteering with victims of sexual assault, and abuse.
So why did she get paid?
Same reason this happens everytime. To shut them up and make them go away. Every single time a woman claims assualt , the moment they get paid they disappear never to be heard of again. It is as if they wanted the money all along. Unfortunately this takes away from real assaults and rapes that should be investigated and prosecuted. We unfortunately live in a society where young attractive girls know they only need to make an accusation even with no proof at all and they could end up a good pay day. I'm not saying that is what happened here (before you try and twist my words) but it does happen.
Considering I'm female, no, I'm not her dad. I'm just someone who has spent the last 25 years volunteering with victims of sexual assault, and abuse.
Good for you. A noble cause and I applaud you for that. Doesn't have any relevence on this case though as again, no crime was commited. US law does not supersede UK law so is irrelvent.
You can have opinions on what happened. That is fine. Personally I think it is all a bit seedy but again no crime was commited. share
In her complaint, 2 of the events happened in the USA.
Yes her complaint. That is not an admission of guilt. No evidence has been brought forward from anyone to even hint anything criminal happened.
Being a British Soverign citizen he doesn't have to speak with anyone in America due to the fact and hate repeating myself. No crime was commited.
Now you seem a nice person but are taking this very personally. Maybe shouldn't. She has been paid and we will never hear of this story again now. Prince Andrew will disappear quietly and retire form Royal service. What more doyou want. Unless she comes forward and presses charges against him which she stilll hasn't done then no one can do anything.
I have said my piece but i'm sure you will reply so I say have an enjoyable evening as this is my last reply on this subject.
I'm not taking this case personally. What I am taking personally is that every single fucking case of sexual assault on this board, EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. the victim is a liar. It doesn't matter when they win in court, they are still just fucking sluts looking for a payout. THAT is what gets tiring.
If men don't want to pay out, then they should go to court and see it through because historically, men win in cases of sexual assault because proof of rape is really difficult to produce. But no, you all assume that because a man pays out it's because he doesn't want to be dragged through the mud. Perhaps the question should be, if they didn't do anything wrong, why are they paying out?
It's simple really. If these men, and women, stopped paying, there would be no false accusations, or ever fewer than there already are. I mean, if a woman you've never touched, publicly accused you of rape, would you just pay her off and let people think the worst of you? Or would you take it to court?
I'm seriously not following any of this... nor would I ever victim blame..... but, I do want to ask about whats between the lines here...
law says she was trafficked, I get that.
did someone hold a gun to her head while she was raped?
did she never try to "Escape" being trafficked? after the first time? after the second time? after the 3rd time even?
did she NOT WANT TO have sex with these rich and powerful people?
just wondering about the situation. in my youth, when we were all under age, I knew PLENTY of wo.... GIRLS who were after sex: 14, 15, 16, and 17 year olds (when i was this age too) and many would have jumped at the chance of banging someone rich or famous. NOT SAYING RIGHT OR WRONG HERE, just saying how it really is.
just asking because I don't keep up with these click-generating dramas
So you understand that she was trafficked. That really is all you need to understand about this case.
I must say that no actual guns need to held to anyone's head for rape to happen.
A lot of victims of child sex trafficking (especially in North America) often feel trapped and that they don't have a choice. Those who do the trafficking are really skilled with grooming the children. The sad thing is that a lot of them could walk away, they just don't know how, and then it is too late. I'm not speaking of this case in particular, just child trafficking in general. I don't know exactly what the victim here went through. None of us ever will so I'm not going to guess.
As for the people you knew in your youth who at young ages would have slept with rich and famous men, I'm sure they would have. Perhaps after a concert or something. Or a celebrity they found attractive. Are you so sure they would like to be told which one to have sex with? I don't know the answer.
ok, so we don't really know what happened, just hearsay. got it.
I truly didn't know if we had any details about the situation. sounds like we don't.
so, let's presume, with zero evidence, all she says is true.
because, that is how it works these days.
But you do understand that US law says she was trafficked, or are you doubting that too?
From the first link
This statute makes it a federal offense to knowingly recruit, entice, harbor, transport, provide, obtain, or maintain a minor (defined as someone under 18 years of age) knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that the victim is a minor and would be caused to engage in a commercial sex act. “Commercial sex act” is defined very broadly to include “any sex act, on account of which anything of value is given to or received by any person.” In other words, it is illegal both to offer and to obtain a child, and cause that child to engage in any kind of sexual activity in exchange for anything of value, whether it be money, goods, personal benefit, in-kind favors, or some other kind of benefit. Section 1591 also makes it a crime for individuals to participate in a business venture that obtains minors and causes them to engage in commercial sex acts.share
When the victim is a minor, Section 1591 does not require proof that the defendant used force, threats of force, fraud, or coercion, or any combination of those means, to cause the minor to engage in a commercial sex act.
Section 1591 applies equally to American children (U.S. citizens or residents) who are prostituted within the United States, as well as foreign nationals (persons not a U.S. citizen or resident) who are brought into the United States and are then caused to engage in prostitution. The law also criminalizes any person who conspires or attempts to commit this crime.
yup.
our laws know best. :)
especially when they support conclusions like this one:
"let's presume, with zero evidence, all she says is true.
that is how it works these days."
So, you think that she's lying about everything? She didn't know Epstein? She didn't meet Prince Andrew? She didn't know Ghislaine Maxwell? That picture of her a Maxwell's apartment was faked?
shareYour Honor, I object! defender is speculating with suppositions!! :)
since I wasn't there, I don't know any of it, either way.
BUT, I believe in "Innocent until proven guilty" not "guilty until proven innocent" which is the now Social Justice way.
Let me postulate another possibility. Maybe this is all being done for money. If it's not, why don't they "taylor swift" it and sue for $1 ?
And look what she got? A bag of money. Exhibit A.
Well, I still haven't seen anything concrete about how much she is actually getting, and how much her charity is getting. Now, you can be pessimistic and say that she would just take it all from her "charity" but since we aren't seeing the specifics, I would think that there would be safeguards in place for that. The queen isn't stupid, and since it seems that she is behind this payout. Furthermore, what makes some lawsuits fine, but others not? Why shouldn't she be able to sue?
Look, if she is lying, she is a piece a dirt who is making it much more difficult for other victims. But one has to question that if she already got a settlement from Epstein, and now the Prince, it makes it a little more probable to me that something happened. I mean read Andrew's statement.
Luckily, in the past, no woman has ever lied about anything to get paid. So, this could be the first time, and set a new precedent. ;)
I still wonder why it is so odd for us to accept that a hot 17 year old wanted to get some action? MANY kids are no longer virgins well before 18 - even if the "LAW" forbids it. That's probably closer to human nature than our laws are, and now that I am deviated so far off this topic, I shall bow out. :)
Please do
sharebecause you don't like MY opinion? thats not a good way to run an interesting discussion. :D
I'll let the law decide things, not morons online trumpeting social justice.
There is a big difference between a hot teenager wanting some action and a teenager being taken to rich men and being instructed what to do and how to do it. Yes she got paid for it. I'm not denying that. You are just choosing to see those as the same thing. I assure you, they are not. That's why most people don't go around suing people they've slept with as teenagers, even if they do become rich and successful.
You all just see her getting paid. Maybe you would like to change places with her? I just don't get it at all. I really don't. It's not social justice, it's just a very long time watching victims of rape and sexual abuse continue to get abused years afterwards from people like you who will never, ever believe them.
I see her getting paid NOW....
none of really know what went on back then. You don't know, I don't know... we'll all never know the truth.
Yes, and the amount is confidential even though sources are saying 14 million. If it all goes to her charity and she doesn't get anything would that change your mind?
shareno, a time machine would be helpful. I dont have a mind needing changing. I think nothing of this, it is not a part of my life, im just speculating other possible options. I dont know, no one knows
shareOkay, so what are victims supposed to do? What is that point of speculating about someone else's pain?
sharei dont know such things... but if it were me, I would say something about it at the time or the next day, not 30 years later when the #metoo movement happens. talk about coat tailing.
"Oh... NOW I can claim that guy that pinched my ass at the bar is a sexual harasser". Great precedent there.
Talk to a woman in your life who has been harassed. Talk to some of the men. I'm so glad that in some places consent is now being taught in school. Pinching someone's ass is sexual harassment. I'm done
shareever been out to any bar, ever? hahahahaha
I've had drunk women GRIND on me without permission - NOT on the dance floor, just while I sat at the bar. and the butt pinch was actually me.... she pinched MY ass without permission - we'd just met.... guess I should sue for the torment it brought me, huh
I've had my balls squeezed while out with my wife.
shareWithout consent that is sexual harassment as well. You might not be able to sue for it, but you could have pressed charges. And yes, I am actually being serious. Even if nothing came out it, people need to know that they have no right touching other people in a sexual manner without their permission. I wish more men would say something when it happens.
sharemeh... bottom line will ALWAYS be: we're very sexual beings. always were, always will be, no legislation is ever going to come close to touching this fact.
shareTalk to a man who has been harrassed.
I'm so glad that in some places consent is now being taught in school
But not to woman and girls who seem to think they can do what they want.
How about having your balls squeezed.
How about the hen night parties that go around kissing other guys for a high score
How about men having there ass smacked as well
I've had all these while out with my wife. I don't want it but I have no where to go and no one to complain to. We just get laughed at and told to man up or whats wrong didn't you like it. We get no multi million pound pay outs.
It happens on both sides so get over yourself. share
Did you just ignore my post right above this?? Get over yourself.
shareteenager being taken to rich men and being instructed what to do and how to do it
Complete assumption based on your bias towards this. You can't possibly know that or even infer it. Infact you can't know anything of this case so are pushing your own beliefs onto it.
You all just see her getting paid
Yes 12 million pounds. Not bad for being flown around and having sex. If she was truely a victim of crime and assaulted, raped and trafficked as you keep saying then why did she not press charges and take it to court. Suddenly she is quiet after getting paid. Can't be that traumatic can it. 12 million seems to heal those wounds not unsurprisingly
it's just a very long time watching victims of rape and sexual abuse continue to get abused years afterwards from people like you
That is a pretty inflammatory claim against someone you don't know. You have just accused him of rape and abuse and you think you will get sympathy after that.
I was polite earlier but not after that claim. As others have said you are not after a discussion of right and wrong you just want everyone to agree with you otherwise you just won't listen.
As hard as it is to hear woman make stuff up nd do stuff for money. It is literally the oldest profession. You may not like it and thats fine you are entitled to.
There are many documented cases of false allegations and they were paid for those false allegations. Maybe have a go at them first and more people would probably believe true victims when it happens.
I will finish as i did before.
No crime was commited. I really don't know why you keep pushing the same things share
That is a pretty inflammatory claim against someone you don't know. You have just accused him of rape and abuse and you think you will get sympathy after that.
Where did I say that? In what you quoted from me you conveniently left out the last part of the sentence that stated that the continued abuse comes from not believing them when they say anything.
No crime was commited. I really don't know why you keep pushing the same things
Fine. No crime was committed and Andrew just paid a bunch of money to a woman for no reason whatsoever.
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Also, could you please point me towards all these documented false allegations?
oh my god they are in the news all the time.
some guy just got out of prison after like 25 years of false rape accusation.
and a couple other cases in the past 5 years.
what about Ke$ha? her highly famous producer had to molest her several times, yet not any of the other hotties he produced? Weird coincidence it was the exact same timing right after she wanted to get out of a contract with him? yeah, weird, huh.
i read a local story of a girl that said her boyfriend raped her. he got put away for a very short time while they sorted the case out. after release (like two months), he got with her and secretly video taped a conversation with her, where she confessed she lied, was just pissed at him, and wanted to get back at him, and then they had sex again ALL ON TAPE!!!
I'm not victim blaming, I'm saying there are times they are NOT victims, and it should make everyone think twice.
https://www.thecut.com/article/false-rape-accusations.html
To put that data into perspective, Newman consulted data on wrongful murder convictions. “It seems to be extremely rare for anyone to be wrongfully convicted as a result of a false accusation of rape,” she says. “I was only able to find 52 cases in 25 years where a conviction was later overturned after a wrongful conviction based on false rape allegations. In the same period, there were 790 cases where people were found to be wrongfully convicted of murder.” For what it’s worth, 790 divided by 52 is 15.2, meaning that by Newman’s data, you were 15 times likelier in that 25-year period to be wrongfully convicted of murder than of rape. And, let’s keep in mind, rape allegations resulting in convictions are already vanishingly rare: Newman cites a study that found that, of 216 assault complaints classified as false, only six led to arrest, and only two led to actual charges. (And even then, they were eventually deemed false.)
https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/Publications_NSVRC_Overview_False-Reporting.pdf
Research shows that rates of false reporting
are frequently inflated, in part because of
inconsistent definitions and protocols, or a weak
understanding of sexual assault. Misconceptions
about false reporting rates have direct, negative
consequences and can contribute to why many
victims don’t report sexual assaults
share
We can also discuss cases like this if you'd like as well.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/08/18/no-prison-time-ex-houston-doctor-who-raped-heavily-sedated-patient/1031665002/
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/what-happened-to-amber-wyatt-rape/
https://wjla.com/news/crime/no-prison-grandson-republican-virginia-governor-rape
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/12/baylor-rape-trial-fraternity-president-plea-deal.html
https://www.cnn.com/2016/09/02/us/brock-turner-college-athletes-sentence/index.html
https://globalnews.ca/news/4227215/knees-together-judge-robin-camp-law-society-alberta/
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2007/feb/01/penal.genderissues
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6202113/Alaska-man-strangled-masturbated-hitchhiker-spared-jail-given-pass.html
https://jezebel.com/judge-decides-it-was-illegal-to-sentence-teacher-to-3-1252318261
https://www.cnn.com/2014/04/02/justice/delaware-du-pont-rape-case/index.html
And because I'm tired and want to go to bed I found this tumblr post that lists some cases alphabetically. https://american-injustices.tumblr.com/post/645227685253152768/the-us-justice-system-does-not-care-about-rape
So this may not quite be on the topic of Andrew, I'm just pointing out that there are many reasons why women don't bother going the police route (I mean look up that stats on sexual assaults committed by police officers), why they don't report at all. And why they may not say anything for 30 years because they didn't feel safe.
Yes there are those who make false allegations, but that number is so small. If men don't want to be targeted for women to accuse them, then they need to stop settling and making large payments to make accusers go away.
the best response is
https://bfy.tw/Sa3u
[drops mic]
walks off to thunderous applause
This is a special case.
In a nutshell the was under 18 which meant that she could not be taken from the US or even from one state to another for the purpose of having sex. Even if the state she was had an age of consent of 16 and the state she was taken to also had an age of consent of 16, the fact that she was taken across state line placed it under the federal laws where her being under 18 made it sex trafficking.
If she had been flown on a commercial airline the airline would have required documentation from her parents or legal guardian to allow her to travel outside the country. She avoided that because Epstein had his own plane. But because she was taken out of the country to the UK it was considered sex trafficking. Which is why she was able to bring a suit in the US courts.
If on the other hand she had been taken to the UK legally by her parents and then Andrew happened to see her and decided to rape her in the middle of Hyde Park she would not be able to bring any action in the US courts she would be obligated to use the UK courts.
That is why in this rare case it was allowed to be brought in the US courts.
In a nutshell the was under 18 which meant that she could not be taken from the US or even from one state to another for the purpose of having sex. Even if the state she was had an age of consent of 16 and the state she was taken to also had an age of consent of 16, the fact that she was taken across state line placed it under the federal laws where her being under 18 made it sex trafficking.
Thanks for that (I know next to nothing about US law). In your scenario then, what if she had travelled to the second state on her own? Could she legally decide to have sex with someone once she got there? Or is it illegal for her to travel from her home state to another on her own if she's under 18? share
If she travel completely on her own, assume she drove herself or walked then it wouldn't be considered sex trafficking. What made it sex trafficking was someone other than her parent/legal guardian taking her out of her home state.
shareI get that it wouldn't be trafficking, but so long as the second state has a suitable age of consent can she agree to have sex in that second state if she makes her own way there?
shareYes. If she had made her own way from whatever state she was in to another state and she happened to meet Andrew in that state they could have fucked like rabbits and it wouldn't have been a crime unless Andrew had asked her to come to that state. If he had done anything to influence her leaving her state to go to the other state it would get him in trouble... but if she just said I'm tired of where I am I want to go to some other state, if she was of legal age to fuck it wouldn't matter if that she was under 18 assuming the age in the state she fucked in was 16 it would be fine and dandy.
shareAaaand you have anticipated and answered my third question! Thanks! 👍
shareNo crime was charged, much less proven. Giuffre is a professional extortionist.
share