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Are people really always entitled to their opinions?


What about also their doubts, uncertainties, questioning of things and getting, as in my case, people to subtly, in a ground-breaking style, to indulge me whilst also providing truthful information?

And what about people who like me are at times a little unsure here and there and need more help?

But more importantly, are people always entitled to their opinions no matter how wrong, illogical, at times even prejudiced and self-centered, incorrect, etc, they are? Also...

How come today, including on public forums such as this, many people MAY come out to challenge them and in others, they are just accepted as an unfortunate statistic, is that normal? And also, bearing in mind its not illegal (the deeds may be though, words and thoughts a little less so), should we just leave them people be and also walk away from them or should we continue to challenge them?

Oh and yeah, why HAVE such thoughts even in the first place, thanks.

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Are people entitled to an opinion???? How would you propose to stop anyone from having an opinion? Thought police?

I sense that another argument was lost with someone's parents.

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Yes, but it doesn't mean I have to take them seriously.

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Or even agree to them in any way, for that matter.

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"Yeah, Mom and Dad! My internet friends say that I don't have to agree with you!"

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We bring pe and ems here too, haha.

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"But more importantly, are people always entitled to their opinions no matter how wrong, illogical, at times even prejudiced and self-centered, incorrect, etc, they are?"

This is especially why people are entitled to voice their own views, because nearly everyone on this planet believes those who don't share their views are "wrong, illogical, at times even prejudiced and self-centered, incorrect, etc." We, as a species, have this horrible tendency to join up with people of similar ideology and then brainlessly begin parroting anything else we learn from those people. This is the reason appeal to majority is a fallacy, it doesn't matter how many people mindlessly repeat the same things over and over, it's a question of whether those things are right.

More so, deprogramming people who have gotten themselves in these groups is near impossible. They reinforce their beliefs with the knowledge that there are hundreds of thousands of others who believe the same thing and they can't all be wrong.


"How come today, including on public forums such as this, many people MAY come out to challenge them and in others, they are just accepted as an unfortunate statistic, is that normal?"

In terms of group think, it is quite normal for people to attack those whose ideology doesn't match that of the group. It is effective, especially when in person, to use the power of numbers to shift a person's ideology to a new ideology. Why do you think there are so many Trumpers? Part of the lie we tell ourselves is that there are good people and there are bad people and we are "obviously" one of the good. There are just people, they will always naturally gravitate to like ideas but can be made to adopt ideas they never considered in their lives with only a little pressure. Most people don't honestly like thinking, most people are followers who want to be told what to think, who want others to agree with them even when they're objectively wrong...

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Not that you are biased or anything ... nor calling the kettle black.

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interesting and i think relevant excerpt from jon rauch's new book 'the constitution of knowledge.'

i'm actually in the middle of reading the 2016 reissue of his 94 book 'kindly inquisitors,' & am absolutely loving it.


"What Locke was doing here was expelling from intellectual respectability—from the epistemic rulebook—claims which, because they are not checkable, are not adjudicable. Those claims, not incidentally, would include most of the theological and metaphysical disputes over which the wars of religion were ostensibly fought. Locke saw how untestable certitudes sparked irreconcilable social disputes. "The strength of our persuasions is no evidence at all of their own rectitude," he wrote, "and men may be as positive and peremptory in error as in truth."

When describing disputes that cannot be addressed empirically, Locke used the revealing word dangerous, at least when the disputes rise to the level of moral conflict: "Nothing can be so dangerous as principles thus taken up without questioning or examination; especially if they be such as concern morality, which influence men's lives, and give a bias to all their actions."

Locke's empiricism, then, is a social principle, and he understood it as such. It aims not just at knowledge but also at peace. Combined with his principle of toleration, it would have required the religious disputants of his day to seek paths toward resolving or dissolving their disputes; or else to change the subject and talk about something else—something they could resolve by finding facts and comparing experiences, rather than by coming to blows over divine revelation.

Notice how Locke's empiricism dovetails with the political principles of natural rights and basic equality. Because all people have eyes and ears and minds, and because we must check and consult with each other to find truth, the many, not just the few, are entitled to assert their own beliefs and contest others'. Epistemic rights, like political rights, belong to all of us; empiricism is the duty of all of us. No exceptions for priests, princes, or partisans."

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forgot the link:

https://reason.com/2021/07/24/who-gets-to-decide-the-truth/?utm_content=bufferefcc3&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

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more from jonathan rauch's kindly inquisitors:

'anyone - pope, propagandist, anti-communist, anti-racist - who wants to silence criticism or regulate an argument in order to keep wrong-thinking people out of power has no moral claim to be anything but ignored.'

"In a culture in which people take seriously the possibility that the other guy might be right, shutting him up cannot even in principle advance the cause of knowledge. Just the opposite: it may mean missing the chance to correct a mistake. In liberal society, the impulse to stamp out wrong opinion—Plato’s impulse—is nothing less than the impulse to destroy knowledge itself."

Rauch, Jonathan. Kindly Inquisitors (pp. 78-79). University of Chicago Press. Kindle Edition.

when people say that arguments can be ignored because they're made by a man, because they're made by a white guy, that is something to be treated with contempt and condemned with alacrity!

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There is the concept of Sophistry to contend with. People can make arguments that when strung along far enough, seem to make sense, (Eugenics !), but when we take a step back and look at what the agenda is, it's not wholesome.
So as much as I try to be smart and careful not to fall for a line of obvious bull, I'm also leery of high-fallutin' spinning of the right to yell FIRE in a crowded building.
As with the definition of pornography (which is always in flux, it seems), I don't want to tamp people's right's of self expression, but sometimes this expression is determined to create a negative environment to create societal discord, which does not further democracy.

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In a thread started with horse shit and filled with zirconium (and even more horse shit), you brought the diamond. Appropriate Locke and Rauch.

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thank you.

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he could have just come to the point - religion is bunk :)

or at least not anything that can be fruitfully disputed. my tinkerbell is cuter than your ork. prove me wrong, or fight me.

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Yes.....to a certain extent.

Their entitled to their own opinions but NOT their own rules and facts.

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Haha, thought so. :)

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Yes ofcourse.

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Isn't it interesting how "sophistry" and "SOPHISTICATION" are words that SOUND similar but have meanings and descriptions to it literally light years apart?

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