"He didn't let go because the aggressor was still resisting."
Not true. Video taken by passengers clearly show Neely not moving. Furthermore, if Neely were still moving when the police arrived then he'd still be alive. Instead, CPR was performed by police in order to revive him which failed. Also, three passengers already warned Penny that he was killing Neely. And 30 seconds into the chokehold, most passengers left the subway car at the stop, but Penny continued to choke Neely long after there were no passengers nor threat.
"Prosecutors said that Penny intended to protect bystanders but that he was indifferent to Neely and used too much force to hold him down, the AP reported. They noted that Penny held Neely in a chokehold for much longer than he needed to, even after the train came to a stop and people could safely exit."
The bold portion of the above statement which defines criminally negligent homicide. At some point, Penny should have released Neely.
"During the trial, prosecutors argued that Penny went "way too far," holding Neely around the neck for nearly six minutes, past the point when he posed a threat. About 30 seconds after Penny put Neely in the chokehold, the train arrived at the next station and many passengers left the train car, according to court filings.
Footage of the interaction between Penny and Neely, which began about 2 minutes after the incident started, captures Penny holding Neely for about 4 minutes and 57 seconds on a relatively empty train with a couple of passengers nearby.
Prosecutors argue that Penny should have known that his minutes-long chokehold was turning fatal. "Everyone the defendant wanted to protect had already left the train," Yoran said. "There is no justification for deadly physical force at this point.
While a bystander shook Neely, checked for a pulse and tried to put him into a recovery position, Yoran pointed out that Penny stood there doing nothing, as depicted on video.
"He just didn't recognize that Jordan Neely too was a person," Yoran said. "He simply saw him as a threat to be eliminated.""
https://abcnews.go.com/US/closing-arguments-daniel-penny-trial-jordan-neely/story?id=116198488
The medical expert's so-called explanation is laughable and isn't credible.
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joej2923 (3045)
2 days ago
Neely was a threat as long as he was conscious since he had threatened to kill people. The threat had to be stopped and the chokehold accomplished that. Neely was previously arrested for battery on a woman in the subway so he had done this before. Additionaly, Neely was arrested FORTY-TWO TIMES for various crimes. Neely also needed to held so the police could lock him up so he would not commit additional crimes.
https://www.newsweek.com/jordan-neely-arrest-record-outrage-grows-subway-death-1798248
In a fight for one's life against a potential killer, it is not possible to use too much force. The goal of such a defense is to stop the threat against one's life. I'm sure the passenger car cleared out once it stopped because everyone feared for their lives.
Penny was probably exhausted and even suffering from the ordeal after being in a wrestling match for over five minutes. The other two men who held down Neely's legs were not charged so Daniel Penny should not have been charged. There were several witnesses who testified that Neely was a threat. The passenger car was not relatively empty as you suggested in your rebuttal.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/04/nyregion/daniel-penny-trial-subway-chokehold-case.html
This is a case of self-defense and Daniel Penny must be acquitted. These people were stuck on a passenger car with a drug-crazed madman. A hero stepped up to stop the threat that Jordan Neely posed to others.
https://www.tsiglerlaw.com/blog/new-york-self-defense-laws/
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Keelai (34967)
2 days ago
"arrested FORTY-TWO TIMES"
Mainly for not paying the overpriced subway fare of $2.90 which is excessive as is your belief that it warrants a death sentence. His arrest for drinking alcohol in public is a lot of nonsense, too. One can smoke a joint in public, but not drink a beer? What BS!
"Should Daniel Penny be acquitted or convicted?"
You asked for an opinion, therefore I gave you mine. I believe the jury will likely return with a verdict of guilty of criminally negligent homicide in which I agree.
No, deadly force is not acceptable when there is no threat. He killed a guy in an EMPTY subway car since the passengers left.
Similar situation with Bernhard Goetz who shot muggers(?) on a NYC train decades ago. After shooting them, Goetz approached one lying on the floor who he had already shot and said "You seem to be doing all right, here’s another" and shot him again. No longer a threat, but Goetz shot him anyway! Goetz went to prison for illegal gun possession.
I've no interest in retrying a case on MC that I've largely been ignoring.
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SemiAnimus (2454)
2 days ago
In which states can marijuana be consumed in public without prohibitions? Genuinely curious as I'm not aware of any.
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joej2923 (3045)
2 days ago
I didn't see a full record of his arrests so I don't know if he was arrested for alcohol or fare jumping. I do know that a lot of crimes are not reported or go unsolved so he potentially committed more than forty-two crimes and some of them could have been felonies. Based on the two articles below, he was arrested three times for exposing his genitals to women and he was arrested at least three times for punching sexagenarians. He was arrested twice for synthetic marijuana possession and one friend blamed the marijuana for his mental issues.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/jordan-neely-history-attacks-subway-riders-nyc-chokehold-death
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/jordan-neely-death-subway.html
A $2.90 subway fare is not overpriced and it would help keep vagrants off the subway cars. Homeless people sleep on these cars and usually harass people for money. Three weeks before his death, Neely was on the subway car at 3am when he exposed himself to a social worker and urinated on the train before fleeing. I never said that a death sentence was warranted but I do contend that a threat to others must be stopped. Neely was a threat to others based on his numerous arrests for battery. He punched at least three people and I believe there is a fourth victim.
Neely was a threat to society as long as he was allowed to roam free. Neely should have been locked up so he would not be a threat to other people. There was actually a warrant for Neely's arrest because he had violated the terms of his lenient sentence for the 2021 assaults. Penny did the right thing by holding Neely so the police could lock him up and protect society. One punch can kill and Neely was going to kill another unsuspecting sexagenarian.
There aren't many similarities between the Goetz case and the Penny case. Goetz was actually acquitted of the murder and assault charges but he was convicted of possession of an unlicensed firearm.
We will have to agree to disagree.
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