Universal health care? For or against it? - Politics Discussion

[–] marktayloruk (2507) a year ago

For I'm British and we've had it since 1948.

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[–] veezer4551 (275) a year ago

Interesting. Are you satisfied with your healthcare system?

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[–] marktayloruk (2507) a year ago

No but at least we're not charged a fortune

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[–] CraigC (8276) a year ago

Ha! Only 20-25% of your income.

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[–] Batfleck (1538) a year ago

in what world? try 10%.

https://www.myhsn.co.uk/top-tip/how-much-does-the-nhs-cost#:~:text=Total%20UK%20central%20government%20funding,about%2010%25%20of%20your%20taxes.

also

https://www.cihi.ca/en/national-health-expenditure-trends-2022-snapshot#:~:text=Canada%20is%20among%20the%20highest%20spenders%20in%20the%20OECD&text=Canada%27s%20per%20capita%20spending%20on,and%20Australia%20(CA%247%2C248).

The US spends 15 000 per person healthcare. the UK spends 6000. that private healthcare is really working out well you save so much money! the average cost works out so I only have to pay 6000 in taxes. but the average american pays 15 000 in insurance and premiums. at the least the government didnt get that money! id rather a greedy corporation gets 15k to provide the same service the government does for 6. silly government waste and inefficiency.

its so much better when you prioritize profit driven healthcare, unrestricted drug costs for more corporate profit, higher uncapped salaries and a complicated private insurance system requiring legions of extra employees to navigate and process it, leading to further price increases as these hospitals, clinics and insurance companies need to to increase profits to cover this extra labor cost. How could these all be bad, rather than the focus being on actual healthcare not to make money. that could never backfire?

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[–] CraigC (8276) a year ago

Bullshit.

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[–] Batfleck (1538) a year ago

HA must be nice to live in your alternative reality.

where you dont have to give an arguement or evidence. just scream "nah uh!"

where am i wrong? go on present evidence.

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[–] CraigC (8276) a year ago

FACT, folks in the UK, Australia, Canada, Germany, etc., who have a decent income pay 50% of their income in taxes and half of that goes to universal healthcare. Are you really stupid enough to think it's free?

You may be a poor freeloader who gets away with not paying taxes but I don't. Universal healthcare would double my tax bill.

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[–] Batfleck (1538) a year ago

https://www.fidelity.ca/en/investor/investorinsights/2023-canadian-income-tax-brackets/

https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/federal-income-tax-brackets#:~:text=There%20are%20seven%20tax%20rates,bracket%20than%20they%20were%20previously.

educate yourself you joke

Federally the USA has HIGHER taxes on brackets.

Canada tops out at 33%. the US tops out at 37%

of course it then varies province to province and state to state.

Who said it was FREE you clown?

so we have similar taxes. PLUS you have to pay for private insurance on top of that. whereas in the universal system the taxes pay for it.

so no.

HA more facts to disprove the uninformed Craig

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[–] CraigC (8276) a year ago

Get a fucking clue. Scroll down to page 5. At the bottom of that list, the top tax rate is 49%.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/price-of-public-health-care-insurance-2020.pdf

You're a naive fool or just an asshole with an agenda to think it's cheaper and/or ore efficient for the fucking government to run your healthcare.

I researched this for personal financial reasons. You Googled it to win an argument. Big difference.

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[–] Batfleck (1538) a year ago

Ya and how much do lower income people pay? 3% of their income. why didnt it include that important detail?? so yes higher income people pay a higher tax and a higher portion goes to healthcare. wow you cracked the code! you figured out basic taxes work evyerhwere! richer people pay more taxes!

ALso your fraser institute link INCLUDES PROVINCIAL TAXES you idiot. wow maybe learn how to read before you type. this is that stupidity i talked about. i specifically said FEDERAL taxes. do you know what FEDERAL means?

i didnt include provincial because they massively vary, do do US states.

so ya how am i going to fairly compare the highest STATE TAX of a US state, to a provincial tax of various provinces?

https://turbotax.intuit.ca/tips/an-overview-of-federal-tax-rates-286

here ya go! i am sure turbo tax, the company that makes software for filing taxes, doesnt know what the tax rates are though right?

https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/individuals/frequently-asked-questions-individuals/canadian-income-tax-rates-individuals-current-previous-years.html

how about the official government of Canada site? they lying too?

hey i have advice. next time fucking read what i wrote. You appear to read 20% of my posts, then write a response to that.

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[–] UncleRuckis (2627) a year ago

after 20 years in the military and having the cost of healthcare be basically a non issue for myself and my family, I'm definitely for.

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[–] Galilguy (2482) a year ago

The only problem is that once you have it, it's forever. I've lived in 2 countries with UHC and both systems sucked. People tend to think that it's free or cheaper. That's because you don't get a bill. They aren't educated on the fact that you pay for it every month with a much smaller paycheck, and yes it still comes out of your money even if you don't use it. Of course sooner or later the system starts hurting on money and when that happens waiting lists for needed expensive treatment are what they go to..

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[–] veezer4551 (275) a year ago

Medical expenses are a huge issue in this country. It is one of the highest causes of debt in this country.

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[–] VinceD (9887) a year ago

What two countries did you live in with UHC?

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[–] Batfleck (1538) a year ago

it is objectively cheaper. thats a fact.

if you look at per person spending the US has the highest. the country with the highest universal healthcare spending only spends 1/2 what the US does and most less.

yaaa no duhh it comes out of our pay cheques, and??? what do you think private insurance is? free? doesnt come out of your money?is lower cost?

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[–] CraigC (8276) a year ago

It's not a fact, it's a lie that you keep repeating.

I'm self employed and pay ALL of my insurance. My maximum outlay, including premiums and the deductible is 3% of my income. If I don't use it, it's 2%. Virtually any country's system with universal healthcare would cost me WAAAAAY more than that. I don't mean a little but tenfold. You don't see it and you don't care because other people are footing your medical bills.

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[–] Batfleck (1538) a year ago

no it is. according to every single organization that has crunched the numbers.

the healthcare cost per person in the US is around 12-14K. the highest universal healthcare cost is 8400.

show me one that disagrees with these numbers. just one!

and depending on your income that can be a way way higher percent. so if you are high income thats a small %, if you are low income its a higher %. maths is difficult huh?

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[–] B1cKsurN (17484) a year ago

Any Universal Insurance(We don't have a healthcare problem in the US, we have an insurance problem) plan should have an opt-in/opt-out clause. As long as the option for private insurance remains available, I have no issues with those that opt-in to universal insurance and pay for it themselves...ie, a Membership Program.

Meaning, those who opt-in for Universal Insurance become the tax-payers that maintain that system. Those of us that want to remain on private insurance, do not contribute to the universal fund, only the members do.

________________________
Great minds discuss ideas.
Average minds discuss events.
Small minds discuss people.
Leftists always lie.
Wokeness is Weakness.

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[–] Gd5150 (11771) a year ago

Lol. Imagine if they did that and it had to remain solvent. It would either cost users $1500/week. Or their free healthcare premiums would cover the cost of an annual bottle of aspirin.

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[–] B1cKsurN (17484) a year ago

Exactly. They know their system is BS and need to abolish private insurance in order to prop up the whole system, because I would never survive on it's own.

________________________
Great minds discuss ideas.
Average minds discuss events.
Small minds discuss people.
Leftists always lie.
Wokeness is Fascism+Hypocrisy.

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[–] Batfleck (1538) a year ago

https://www.cihi.ca/en/national-health-expenditure-trends-2022-snapshot#:~:text=Canada%20is%20among%20the%20highest%20spenders%20in%20the%20OECD&text=Canada%27s%20per%20capita%20spending%20on,and%20Australia%20(CA%247%2C248).

The US spends 15 000 per person healthcare. the UK spends 6000. that private healthcare is really working out well you save so much money! the average cost works out so I only have to pay 6000 in taxes. but the average american pays 15 000 in insurance and premiums. at the least the government didnt get that money! id rather a greedy corporation gets 15k to provide the same service the government does for 6k. silly government waste and inefficiency.

its so much better when you prioritize profit driven healthcare, unrestricted drug costs for more corporate profit, higher uncapped salaries and a complicated private insurance system requiring legions of extra employees to navigate and process it, leading to further price increases as these hospitals, clinics and insurance companies need to to increase profits to cover this extra labor cost. How could these all be bad, rather than the focus being on actual healthcare not to make money. that could never backfire?

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[–] B1cKsurN (17484) a year ago

Posting more biased scripture?

What's up Melinasmirror?

________________________
"When fascism comes to America, it will come in the name of 'Liberalism'."
-President Ronald Reagan

https://youtube.com/shorts/jPbGsvoNKMw?feature=share

Leftists always lie.
Wokeness is Fascism+Hypocrisy.

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[–] Batfleck (1538) a year ago

ya the hard numbers on healthcare spending are "scripture"

you have no response so this is all you can think of. your feeble mind was shown facts so this is your defence mechanism :) ill take that as your subconscious admitting you've been humiliated but cant own up to being wrong.

point to 1 thing i am wrong about.

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[–] Batfleck (1538) a year ago

[deleted]

[–] Batfleck (1538) a year ago

keep laughing but you are wrong. you spend 2.5 on average more on healthcare than a person on the UK.

https://www.cihi.ca/en/national-health-expenditure-trends-2022-snapshot#:~:text=Canada%20is%20among%20the%20highest%20spenders%20in%20the%20OECD&text=Canada%27s%20per%20capita%20spending%20on,and%20Australia%20(CA%247%2C248).

The US spends 15 000 per person healthcare. the UK spends 6000. that private healthcare is really working out well you save so much money! the average cost works out so I only have to pay 6000 in taxes. but the average American pays 15 000 in insurance and premiums. at the least the government didn't get that money! id rather a greedy corporation gets 15k to provide the same service the government does for 6. silly government waste and inefficiency.

its so much better when you prioritize profit driven healthcare, unrestricted drug costs for more corporate profit, higher uncapped salaries and a complicated private insurance system requiring legions of extra employees to navigate and process it, leading to further price increases as these hospitals, clinics and insurance companies need to to increase profits to cover this extra labor cost. How could these all be bad, rather than the focus being on actual healthcare not to make money. that could never backfire?

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[–] Gd5150 (11771) a year ago

Questions that should and would be addressed if our government were run by educated business men rather than lying career politicians.

How much will universal healthcare cost each American per month?

Premiums
Copay
Deductible

What will it cover?

Why does the current system hide costs until months after you’ve agreed to them?

What will the total cost of the system be to the nation?

Where will the money come from to to pay for the system?

How much will doctors and nurses be paid? How much will surgeons and specialists be paid? Will the system promote based on merit, or our current racist DEI policy?

Who will decide what medical procedures are covered and aren’t covered? Who will run these death panels?

How much power will big pharma ie FDA, CDC, and other corrupt bureaucracies have?

How will the system maintain quality when we promote based on racist choices rather than qualifications?

Will there still be a private system for the elites? (like our noble saviors in congress)

What will the incentives be for people to spend a life in medicine if it doesn’t pay a buttload?

Which overpriced under performing branch of government can we expect universal healthcare to be modeled after?

How will the government force people to work for free when it can’t pay for universal healthcare?

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[–] Batfleck (1538) a year ago

You mean questions other governments already know and have figured out and have worked with for decades and decades and decades?? with some outright silly loaded ones showing your paranoid and delusional views

you are over complicating it on purpose. and your initial comment shows you do not have any actual understanding of universal healthcare systems.

you said it'd cost people 1500 a week and healthcare premiums and even a bottle of aspirin would cost thousands. you are now trying to act like you are asking legitimate questions after making up lies.

no honest discussion will happen here because you are a liar.

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[–] Gd5150 (11771) a year ago

Notice you’re totally incapable of providing any hard evidence. Any supporting evidence at all.

The reality is even of the government provided the answers to the questions we’d have to multiply them by 100 because they lie about everything.

No matter how much brain dead lemmings like yourself want to trust them.

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[–] VinceD (9887) a year ago

Based on the most recent data from 2023, compared to other western, high-income countries that have universal healthcare systems, the United States, which does not have a universal healthcare system, has significantly worse health outcomes, while spending significantly more on healthcare.

The U.S. spends nearly 18% of its GDP on healthcare, yet Americans have a lower life expectancy and higher rates of avoidable deaths compared to residents of other high-income countries. For instance, Germany, which has a socialized healthcare system, spends less on healthcare per capita than the U.S., yet its life expectancy at birth is nearly four years higher (Commonwealth Fund, 2023).

Health spending per person in the U.S. was $12,914 in 2021, which was over $5,000 more than any other high-income nation. The average amount spent on health per person in comparable countries is less than half of what the U.S. spends per person (McGough et al., 2023).

Despite high U.S. spending, Americans experience worse health outcomes than their peers around the world. For example, life expectancy at birth in the U.S. was 77 years in 2020, three years lower than the OECD average. The U.S. also has the highest rates of avoidable or treatable conditions, the highest maternal and infant mortality, and among the highest suicide rates (Commonwealth Fund, 2023).

The U.S. has the highest rate of people with multiple chronic conditions and an obesity rate nearly twice the OECD average. Americans see physicians less often than people in most other countries and have among the lowest rate of practicing physicians and hospital beds per 1,000 population (Commonwealth Fund, 2023).

The data is clear: Countries with single-payer, universal healthcare systems are able to achieve better health outcomes while spending less on healthcare compared to the U.S.

Sources:

McGough, M., McGough, M., Telesford, I., Rakshit, S., Twitter, E. W., Twitter, K. A., & Twitter, C. C. (2023, February 15). How does health spending in the U.S. compare to other countries? Peterson-KFF Health System Tracker. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/

U.S. health care from a Global Perspective, 2022: Accelerating spending, worsening outcomes. Commonwealth Fund. (2023, January 31). https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2023/jan/us-health-care-global-perspective-2022

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[–] Batfleck (1538) a year ago

ya but

"How will the system maintain quality when we promote based on racist choices rather than qualifications?"

"What will the incentives be for people to spend a life in medicine if it doesn’t pay a buttload?"

These are the insightful REAL questions that GD5150 needs answered. He probably believes Canadian doctors and nurses get paid 5$ and 2$.

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[–] Batfleck (1538) a year ago

the hard evidence is 72 countries having universal healthcare, They have all have figured out how it works. all spend less on healthcare than the united states.

you are a nutjob though so yes i ignored your silly questions. ill address one just to show why i didnt waste my time answering them all

What will the incentives be for people to spend a life in medicine if it doesn’t pay a buttload?

because these 72 other countries don't have nurses and doctors! theres no incentives so the UK doesnt have physicians. did you not read your own comment and realize how dumb it was? you wrote that and thought it was a good point? are you all there?

but heres the truth

On average, doctors gross more in the US. However, expenses are much higher in the US as well, with malpractice insurance much less expensive in Canada. American doctors also tend to have far more staff to deal with the massive payment bureaucracies.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/

as for costs of the system overall. Germany is the second highest spender at 8k. with all the other countries with universal healthcare well below them. with every single one being far less the USA.

It is unfortunate, but facts show your system is expensive and costly so you can take back your nonsense comments about universal healthcare being too expensive

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[–] Gd5150 (11771) a year ago

The US isn’t 72 countries.

You want people to dive in blindly to your healthcare system you better come with hard numbers, not wishful thinking.

Of course we know your Democrat party masters have no hard numbers. They never do. And lemmings like yourself are first to lock your mouths onto their rectums.

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[–] Batfleck (1538) a year ago

The US isn’t 72 countries.

you are right it is fully of exceptionally dumb people like yourself. who say things like "What will the incentives be for people to spend a life in medicine if it doesn’t pay a buttload?"

you couldnt even address my takedown of it because you know it was a dumb comment :)

You want people to dive in blindly to your healthcare system you better come with hard numbers, not wishful thinking.

theres no blindly. all the work has been done. you just do not like the outcome so you ask dumb questions to make it seem overcomplicated, impossible and not settled.

Of course we know your Democrat party masters have no hard numbers. They never do. And lemmings like yourself are first to lock your mouths onto their rectums.

how could they be my masters when i've never voted for them or given them money or supported them? you see democrats around every corner coming for you. and your obsession with rectums. do you have some poo eating fetish to admit to us?

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[–] Gd5150 (11771) a year ago

It’ll be just like universal public education. An overpriced POS. And the wealthy will pay to use private care, thus paying twice.

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[–] Batfleck (1538) a year ago

It’ll be just like universal public education. An overpriced POS. And the wealthy will pay to use private care, thus paying twice.

here are the facts despite your emotions and felings

https://www.pgpf.org/blog/2023/07/how-does-the-us-healthcare-system-compare-to-other-countries#:~:text=In%20fact%2C%20the%20United%20States,preventive%20or%20long-term%20healthcare.

In 2022, the United States spent an estimated $12,555 per person on healthcare — the highest healthcare costs per capita across the OECD countries. For comparison, Switzerland was the second highest-spending country with about $8,049 in healthcare costs per capita, while the average for wealthy OECD countries, excluding the United States, was only $6,414 per person. Such comparisons indicate that the United States spends a disproportionate amount on healthcare.

please delete your silly lying comment. the only thing overpriced is the US garbage private system

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[–] AmeriGirl26 (14486) a year ago

I'd rather have the American system than the shit Canada or Europe has. None of their arguments has been able to convince me that their system is better, because I'd rather have a doctor take care of me now instead of 6 months later when I'm dead from the condition I desperately needed treated. I have heard horror stories about what hospitals in those places are like. Last thing I need is for your average hospital to be like the DMV, which it already is over in California.

We seriously don't need the California model, where your average hospital has a permanent skeleton crew of people that are overworked and can't handle the patient load, even on a GOOD day. I have no doubt the hospitals and doctor's clinics are just like that over in Canada and Europe. Plus, I hear the wealthier people in Europe use private hospitals that are not as accessible to the public, rather than deal with the shit the universal healthcare hospitals have to offer. It shows that there's something wrong with the system when the rich have to use private healthcare.

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[–] Information-Police (4890) a year ago

The thing is that the US could have universal health care, put 50% more resides into it than Canada or the UK does so we wouldn't have shortages of service and still pay significantly less than we do now.

I'm for it, BTW

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[–] CraigC (8276) a year ago

Absolutely against! The US gov't can't sell pussy at a profit. Why would I want them in charge of my healthcare?

I also don't want to pay DOUBLE income tax to pay for the healthcare of freeloaders. Healthcare is an issue but THAT is not the answer.

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[–] veezer4551 (275) a year ago

Then what is the answer?

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[–] veezer4551 (275) a year ago

No answer then?

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[–] CraigC (8276) a year ago

Something that doesn't double my income tax.

I'm sorry, I have two businesses and a life.

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[–] veezer4551 (275) a year ago

I own a business as well and I have no issue giving up some of my cash or comfort for a better society for those less fortunate. Think beyond yourself.

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[–] CraigC (8276) a year ago

You're willing to pay DOUBLE income tax for your fellow man? You're willing to work twice as long to pay the bills of freeloaders? Smells like bullshit.

Think beyond myself? Go fuck yourself. Give away your own money, leave mine alone.

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[–] veezer4551 (275) a year ago

Yep I am willing to make a sacrifice. Also no it would not double it that was a lie from you. Wow you got hostile rather quickly. I will support helping out my fellow man. If it takes your money away I think that is a great thing. You act like a scumbag anyway. You are not entitled to any of the money you make. I would vote on taking every ounce of money away from you. Since you want to be a jerk I support your money being taken away.

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[–] Batfleck (1538) a year ago

hes lying. every other country spends a fraction of what the US doesn't. the UK spends 6000 per person vs 15 000 in the USA.

the private system is overly expensive and more complicated to administer. it requires more employees to handle. all those hospitals and insurance companies need to get their profits

https://www.cihi.ca/en/national-health-expenditure-trends-2022-snapshot#:~:text=Canada%20is%20among%20the%20highest%20spenders%20in%20the%20OECD&text=Canada%27s%20per%20capita%20spending%20on,and%20Australia%20(CA%247%2C248).

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[–] veezer4551 (275) a year ago

Oh I was aware he was lying. Notice ho quickly he got hostile? It is because people like him do not like anyone challenging or disagreeing with their view.

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[–] Batfleck (1538) a year ago

it seems all they can do is lie. get called on it then change the subject or just run away

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[–] CraigC (8276) a year ago

Not a lie.

It would be double.

So you're a tyrant who believes in seizing the hard earned money from people you don't like. Thanks for clearing that up.

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[–] Batfleck (1538) a year ago

it is a lie. the US already spends double. because of the well known inefficiencies in the private system. the hospitals need to get extra profits, the insurance companies need to get extra profits, the extra labor and employee costs of administering a multi insurance private system, both on the hospitals side and the insurance side (compared to say a single system with single coverage). The extra cost of lawyers for these insurance companies in disputes. they need to recoup these costs i described right before this somewhere, leading to higher prices.

its why the private system costs more. it is far more inefficient.

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[–] CraigC (8276) a year ago

It's not a lie, look it up. I'm self employed and know exactly what the fuck I pay and it's nowhere near the 25% of my income that universal healthcare would cost me.

Are you really so painfully retarded that you think the government does anything efficiently? Besides wasting taxpayer money? How old are you, 10???

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[–] Batfleck (1538) a year ago

ya and you pulled that number from your ass.

https://www.myhsn.co.uk/top-tip/how-much-does-the-nhs-cost#:~:text=Total%20UK%20central%20government%20funding,about%2010%25%20of%20your%20taxes.

you are just saying "nah uh!" despite reality tapping on your shoulder. grow up

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[–] CraigC (8276) a year ago

Uh, no, I didn't. I thoroughly researched this with an open mind. You Googled for whatever you thought would support your agenda. The number you keep throwing out is an average of all citizens. I'm talking about what "I" would pay, because I'm not a freeloader. Your average actually illustrates my point, that the only people that benefit are those who put the least into the pot. I refuse to pay for your healthcare, sorry, not sorry.

You grow the fuck up and start paying your own way.

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[–] tvfan (12950) a year ago

Batidiot is another juvenile that thinks he is smart because he knows how to google something that fits his narrative.

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[–] Batfleck (1538) a year ago

you researched it so well you didn't provide any evidence.

Craig you look like you are throwing a tantrum here. when you cant argue it doesnt look good to whine and be a crybaby :(

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[–] veezer4551 (275) a year ago

It is a lie. People from Canada do not pay double. You are lying and you know it.

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[–] CraigC (8276) a year ago

Fuck off, sock.

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[–] Batfleck (1538) a year ago

haha you cant handle facts. im glad everyone here gets to see you have a mental break and be humiliated

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[–] tvfan (12950) a year ago

I have heard other hypocrites make similar statements.
You should become a Democrat politician, it fits you perfectly.

It is called "donating".

It is not necessary to change society to fit your Socialist/Marxist dystopia.

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[–] veezer4551 (275) a year ago

Interesting so you do not care for your fellow man?

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[–] FentonMeiks (1349) a year ago

what about a socialized catastrophic care plan?
(kindof a car's powertrain warranty)
ie cancer, rare/grave disease or illness (specific dire diagnosed issues)

and private health for normal wear/tear parts, bumper to bumper
doc visits, minor surgeries, broken bones, blood work, etc

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[–] Batfleck (1538) a year ago

this makes no sense at all

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[–] Gd5150 (11771) a year ago

Obama already gave us “free healthcare for all”.

Remember?

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[–] veezer4551 (275) a year ago

Not the same thing. Now do you want to answer the question or deflect?

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[–] Gd5150 (11771) a year ago

Sure. No.

When someone can show the government doing anything efficiently or better than the private sector we’ll chat.

They got involved with healthcare under Obama care and premiums went up 500-1000%. No thanks.

Still haven’t answered who’ll run the death panels either.

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[–] Lord Rake (4469) a year ago

The government has been involved in healthcare since way before obamacare. That is why this topic is dumb to start with because the premise presumes that we don't already have a form of universal healthcare. There are mandates, subsidies, taxes, regulations and government agencies all throughout the US healthcare system and they are dictating everything that happens. People who cannot afford healthcare in the US get it. obamacare definitely made everything more entrenched and there is no denying it's government run now, and naturally prices did go up 1000% after it was passed.

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[–] VinceD (9887) a year ago

prices did go up 1000% after it was passed

Do you have a source to support your claim that prices went up 1000% since obamacare was passed?

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[–] Lord Rake (4469) a year ago

Yes, my healthcare bills and I don't use it but still have been buying it ever since I got out of college.

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[–] VinceD (9887) a year ago

That does not even remotely support the claim that prices went up 1000% after the ACA was passed.

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[–] Batfleck (1538) a year ago

its what they do. make outlandish bombastic claims with no evidence. run away when you ask for proof.

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[–] Batfleck (1538) a year ago

lol so lets say you paid 100 a month you now pay 1000$? ya im going to take "things that never happened for 200$ Alec"

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[–] veezer4551 (275) a year ago

Thanks was that so hard to give a straight answer? I disagree with you but that is much more appreciated than deflecting.

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