So where precisely do you imagine our laws originated?
And why do you see the Bible as representing only one "religion"?
http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/the-bible-and-government
Biblical Principles: Basis for America's Laws
Sovereign authority of God, not sovereignty of the state, or sovereignty of man Mayflower Compact, Declaration, Constitution, currency, oaths, mention of God in all 50 state constitutions, Pledge of Allegiance Ex. 18:16, 20:3, Dt. 10:20, 2 Chron. 7:14, Ps. 83:18, 91:2, Isa. 9:6-7, Dan. 4:32, Jn. 19:11, Acts 5:29, Rom. 13:1, Col 1:15-20, 1 Tim. 6:15
Existence of objective moral values, Fixed standards, Absolute truth, Sanctity of life Declaration ("unalienable" rights—life, etc., "self-evident" truths) Ex. 20:1-17, Dt. 30:19, Ps. 119:142-152, Pr. 14:34, Isa. 5:20-21, Jn. 10:10, Rom. 2:15, Heb. 13:8
Rule of law rather than authority of man Declaration, Constitution Ex. 18:24-27, Dt. 17:20, Isa. 8:19-20, Mat. 5:17-18
All men are sinners Constitutional checks and balances Gen 8:21, Jer. 17:9, Mk. 7:20-23, Rom. 3:23, 1 Jn. 1:8
All men created equal Declaration Gen. 1:26, Acts 10:34, 17:26, Gal. 3:28, 1 Peter 2:17
Judicial, legislative, and executive branches Constitution Isa. 33:22 (See Madison)
Religious freedom First Amendment 1 Timothy2:1-2
Church protected from state control (& taxation), but church to influence the state First Amendment Dt. 17:18-20, 1 Kgs. 3:28, Ezra 7:24, Neh. 8:2, 1 Sam. 7:15-10:27, 15:10-31, 2 Sam. 12:1-18, Mat. 14:3-4, Lk. 3:7-14, 11:52, Acts 4:26-29
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[deleted]
6 years ago
God is not mentioned in the constitution of the United States, but there is the establishment clause. I think that makes their intentions pretty clear.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Note the constitution states that there shall be no establishment of religion, not a specific religion, or a specific Christian sect, but religion in general.
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krl97a (5619)
6 years ago
Actually the establishment clause was largely to protect the various state religions existing at the time from federal interference, which is why it's written the strange way it is, as well as prevent a single, national Church of the United States (like the Church of England) from being created. So like some other segments it was to appease multiple interests at the same time. It was clearly not about sterilizing religious references from the public sphere. The Founding Fathers themselves frequently made those references, including in the most vital documents, and quickly established things like religious chaplains to open congressional sessions with a led prayer.
For the record, while the Constitution is a practical legal document, so one wouldn't expect discussions about philosophy or religion, contrary to your claim it technically does mention God in the date in the closing article (VII): "Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven". This is worth noting to contrast it with the consciously secular French Revolution that, for example, went out of its way to eliminate that Christian convention.
More importantly God forms the basis of the American political system in the Declaration of Independence, the "Creator" who grants people natural rights that transcend the earthly whims of government. The theistic premise is vital to the Lockean philosophy that our system is primarily based on and God was frequently discussed in the Federalist papers (e.g. "the transcendent law of nature and of nature’s God" - Madison) and elsewhere.
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[deleted]
6 years ago
Lol. That's rich. Considering a mention of the year as a mention of God. Of course they were going to use the dominant method for counting years in the Constitution. What were they supposed to do, reinvent the calendar?
If you really think they wanted this to be a "Christian Nation" they would have said something explicitly to that effect. Instead they avoided mentioning God completely.
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krl97a (5619)
6 years ago
The French reinvented it at almost the same time, as I pointed out, but on that score I was just correcting your factually false claim about the Constitution. Whether this is a "Christian Nation" depends on how one defines that (your previous post didn't mention that phrase). I took issue with your implication that the founding fathers were somehow anti-religious zealots who wanted no religious references in the public sphere (such references are what this thread is about). Far from having "avoided mentioning God completely", they make God the centerpiece of the most famous and vital section of the nation's founding document:
"all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
How's that for a mention of God? He's cited as the source for the rights we enjoy. There's also the opening sentence: "...to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them". And the close, "with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence".
It's telling that you ignored everything else I said. If your knowledge of America's founding is limited to the text of one document, or more likely what some hack propaganda site fed you about that document, without any background knowledge of founders' writing, lives, or actions involving public religious displays and attitudes, John Locke's philosophy, Washington's speeches, etc., and you don't even get your claim about that one document right, then you've had a poor education indeed.
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Qberto (1139)
6 years ago
A most thorough and accurate analysis there, thank you.
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krl97a (5619)
6 years ago
Thanks to you too. Jacob's comments show he doesn't know the difference between the country's system being based on Judeo-Christian principles (among other things) and a theocracy that forces citizens to adhere to a religion. The founders weren't creating the latter, so obviously they didn't enshrine every time/place specific Deuteronomic law given to the ancient Israelites or compel people to be Christians (which would be a violation of Christian values anyway). But Biblical premises do form the foundation of the freedom and political equality we enjoy. The notion that humans are created equal, for example, only results from the Christian belief that God loves and values every person (also why the Christian West is the only civilization in history to abolish slavery on its own without external pressure in a way that took, not once but twice: in Medieval Western Europe and black slavery in the 1800s, with evangelical Christians leading the way both times). It would be amusing to see Jacob try to articulate some completely non-theistic basis for equality. It's certainly not a claim grounded in science. Unfortunately shallow bottom feeders like him typically flee a debate when challenged like that and don't possess enough intellectual integrity to even make a good faith effort to think the issue through. He'll likely just pop up somewhere else spewing the same debunked garbage. Discussions like this can be useful for open minded, third party readers though.
Which takes us back to the thread topic. Since Jacob doesn't understand the difference between simply seeing public religious references, even if they do constitute a vague "endorsement" of theism, and having his freedom violated, he implies he's being oppressed. He's really just being oppressed by his own intolerance. The most enlightened atheists I know prefer living in a predominately Christian society for empirical reasons if nothing else.
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Qberto (1139)
6 years ago
The most enlightened atheists I know prefer living in a predominately Christian society for empirical reasons if nothing else.
That is the "money quote"!
An insight that recognizes the ethical and legal tolerance of solid Christian precepts lived out through our laws and legal system.
“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.”
- James Madison The Father of the U.S. Constitution.
“It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religious, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here.”
- Patrick Henry, 1776.
“The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.”
- John Quincy Adams, 6th US President.
“The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.”
- US Congress, 1782.
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Qberto (1139)
6 years ago
So of course they would use the dominant ethical currency of the day (The Holy Bible) in devising and enumerating our laws, duh.
"Creator = Nature's God"
You know where to find that, yes?
https://online.hillsdale.edu/courses/constitution-2017/lesson-02/lesson-2
Overview
This lesson provides an account of the “general rule” or first authority cited in the Declaration of Independence—“the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God.” God is cited not only as a creator, but also as law-giver, protector, and judge—the implication being that only He can rightfully exercise all three functions of government. The meaning of the word “nature” is explained from its etymological roots to its revolutionary implications.
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[deleted]
6 years ago
You're basing that on the fact that they used the current method of numbering years, which we still use today.
You're insane. If they wanted to base our laws on the Bible, and they didn't, there are many, many Biblical rules, including several commandments that aren't law, they would have just made it so in the constitution.
What a couple of whackos you and krl97a are.
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krl97a (5619)
6 years ago
Here's another "whacko", moron.
Benjamin Franklin, Constitutional Convention 1787: "I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that “except the Lord build the House they labour in vain that build it.” I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human Wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.
I therefore beg leave to move, that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of the City be requested to officiate in that service."
https://wallbuilders.com/franklins-appeal-prayer-constitutional-convention/
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Qberto (1139)
6 years ago
Note the constitution states that there shall be no establishment of religion, not a specific religion, or a specific Christian sect, but religion in general.
Only a delusional simpleton would conflate the Holy Bible with being a "religion" of any kind. It's a manual for mankind, an allegory in parts, history in others, a guide for faith primarily.
And it IS the basis, along with English Common law and the Code of Hammurabi for our laws.
Cope.
In fact Christ upset the moneychangers' tables in the Temple, you know , the Temple of a "religion" He had qualms with.
https://biblehub.com/john/2-19.htm
...On account of this, the Jews demanded, “What sign can You show us to prove Your authority to do these things?” Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.”“This temple took forty-six years to build,” the Jews replied, “and You are going to raise it up in three days?”…
Berean Study Bible ·
Cross References
Matthew 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
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